Marriage

[00:10] Rory: My name is Rory O’Toole and my name is Matt Schultz.

[00:14] Matt: And this is how to be the.

[00:17] Rory: Podcast where we discuss ancient wisdom, modern hacks, paperback self help books, and pithy.

[00:23] Matt: Platitudes in the hopes of figuring out the best way to live this one precious and wild life, marriage. Some say it’s a source of joy and love and mutual support. Others say it’s an antiquated and sexist ritual. Join us, two unmarried spinsters, as we discuss marriage. Hello, Matthew. Hi, roar. How is ya?

[01:02] Rory: Doing just great. Got a little glass of white wine.

[01:06] Matt: Here, a little vino verde. So eat, pray, love of you, you’re just dolce. Fine. All through this podcast app.

[01:15] Rory: I’m even sitting on the floor.

[01:17] Matt: Wow. You want to get some asparagus and drizzle a little olive oil on it?

[01:21] Rory: I’m on my meditation cushion.

[01:23] Matt: Oh, yeah. Now it’s going to be multipurpose.

[01:26] Rory: Getting my money’s worth.

[01:27] Matt: Your multipea cushion. Okay, so first of all, I just want to say something.

[01:34] Rory: Say it.

[01:35] Matt: And we’ve talked about this, but I wanted our listeners to know, update manifesting doesn’t work. My big manifesting summer where we recorded an episode about does manifesting work? And I was going to go all in this summer on manifesting, and nothing I have wanted has come true. I did not end up at the Taylor Swift concert, among other things.

[01:57] Rory: Yeah, nothing I’ve manifested has come true. Farther. I’m farther away, if anything.

[02:09] Matt: Well, me too, because know it’s over with Taylor. I mean, she has some more dates coming up in Indianapolis and Miami, but come on.

[02:18] Rory: Yeah, go to Des Moines. Make this happen.

[02:21] Matt: Well, I tried to sign up to get pre order tickets for Taylor Swift, so I was like, oh, this is how I’m going to go. And they’re like, sorry, you didn’t get.

[02:34] Rory: It doesn’t work.

[02:35] Matt: Manifesting doesn’t work. And you know what? I’m not going to try. For a while I was like, well, maybe I didn’t do it right, or maybe the universe is trying to tell me something. I was trying to make manifesting work that didn’t work. But no, manifesting should be simple. If it’s simple, it’s simple or it isn’t, because there is cause and effect in the world and so something’s going to happen. Either I’m not going to go or I’m going to go. The only way manifesting works is if I went.

[03:05] Rory: Yeah, if it’s so complicated that you can really do it and not have it work, then it’s really no better a solution than being friends with Taylor Swift.

[03:21] Matt: Yeah.

[03:24] Rory: If having the level of spiritual enlightenment sophisticated enough to manifest is as rare and difficult to attain as being friends with Taylor Swift, then this is not an answer to our problems on this. Know, maybe there are people out there, spiritual adepts who can levitate also.

[03:47] Matt: Right. But we’re not.

[03:48] Rory: That doesn’t mean I don’t have to book tickets, plane tickets if I want to fly home. Can’t just float.

[03:57] Matt: That’s the thing is, something is only as good as how well it can be implemented.

[04:02] Rory: Yeah, but I even think we’re giving it too much credit here by even entertaining the idea that it works for some people. I think those people just got stuff other ways.

[04:13] Matt: I think that I believe in luck more than I believe in manifesting. I believe some people, just like, the dice rolls on double sixes more for them because that’s just a probability. Some people have to have the dice roll on double sixes all the time.

[04:30] Rory: Yeah, that’s going to.

[04:31] Matt: Don’t.

[04:33] Rory: Yeah. And those people are going to feel really like I did this.

[04:39] Matt: Yeah. Oh, of course. That’s why I think Oprah believes in manifesting. Why wouldn’t she? Yes, I was Oprah. I would definitely believe in manifesting.

[04:48] Rory: Yeah. I get everything I want to. Incredible new heights. Every time I dream bigger, it gets bigger. Them inventing ozempic, I manifested that.

[05:02] Matt: That took a long time for her.

[05:04] Rory: She did manifest that. It’s even called ozempic. The gods like to sign their work.

[05:18] Matt: Oh, that’s pretty. Did Ed Sheeran say that? Okay, so people give up on manifesting. Instead focus on the feeling. And when you meditate, if you want to cultivate something within yourself, I think that’s more realistic.

[05:36] Rory: Yeah. And you know what? In the Mishnah, it says, who is rich? The person who is happy with what they have.

[05:45] Matt: No ****. Because I do think even people who get what they want because they’re lucky, that does not indicate happiness necessarily.

[05:53] Rory: No, it definitely does not. And yeah, I think if there’s anything good about the practice, the practices involved in manifesting, I think it’s good to sit down with yourself and be clear about what you want and how to go about it. Because sometimes we never take that time to do. You won’t get what you want if you’re really unclear about it and not making. But like any belief we have that this is.

[06:32] Matt: No, no, sadly. Unfortunately, no.

[06:36] Rory: Yeah.

[06:37] Matt: Which reminds me, I need to call Patrick O’Brien today. I have to consult him about various.

[06:47] Rory: You know, a psychic told my mom recently that I’m going to make great monies in the future.

[06:52] Matt: I really hope that’s true, because you’re so generous that I’ll benefit from that.

[06:58] Rory: Yeah. I’ll take you out for a nice meal.

[07:01] Matt: You definitely. That’s all I want.

[07:04] Rory: Family restaurant. A modestly priced family restaurant.

[07:09] Matt: I follow this Instagram influencer. She’s kind of a parody account, but she’s also not. And she just got engaged. And she was, like, the number one thing I had on my list for the. Speaking of manifesting, she wrote a list of all the things she wanted. The number one thing was, I wanted someone who’s charitable. And I instantly thought of you. I was like, someone with so little is so charitable. You’re so charitable.

[07:32] Rory: Yeah, I gave 50 shekels to a person on the side of the road the other day, and then you had.

[07:43] Matt: To stand up down the road to ask for 50 shekels.

[07:48] Rory: I was like, here’s 50 shekels. And by the way, stay away from that corner. That corner is mine. Okay.

[07:56] Matt: But that’s the thing, is she wrote someone who’s charitable. And I was like, I think you need to put in parentheses also rich. Because being charitable does not necessarily mean that you have a ton of money. As Jesus said, the poor woman who put her only coin in the poor box gave more than the rich man who put hundreds.

[08:17] Rory: Did Jesus say that?

[08:19] Matt: Yeah, there’s a story like.

[08:22] Rory: Nice.

[08:24] Matt: Anyway, anything. Any other cold open you have?

[08:27] Rory: Well, I did have this little thought. As I told you, I’m watching outlander again.

[08:32] Matt: Oh, yes. Everyone, if you’re not watching it, go to season one. Season one and two are excellent television.

[08:41] Rory: Excellent tv. So good. I’m in season five. Less good. But I was thinking about horses and stables. You’re a horse, you’re being ridden somewhere. You get there, they park you. Now you just have to stand there forever.

[09:03] Matt: Well, yeah, it’s kind of like with babies, too.

[09:07] Rory: They don’t have to stand.

[09:11] Matt: Well, they have to stand the rest of their lives. Yeah. Horses don’t get to lay down. If they are laying down, that means they’re sick. Right?

[09:17] Rory: Horses never lie down.

[09:19] Matt: I don’t think horses are supposed to be lying down. Right.

[09:22] Rory: They never take a load off.

[09:24] Matt: Can you google it really quickly?

[09:31] Rory: I can’t picture a horse lying down.

[09:35] Matt: I know. Giraffes never lay down.

[09:39] Rory: Yeah, they would never get up. Okay, I’m seeing some horses lying down. A horse can rest or dose in a standing position, which allows their legs to lock. They do lie down during deeper sleep states. So do I relate? Hashtag relatable. But, yeah, they can rest. Okay, so, yeah, they park them and then they just have to stand there. Nothing to read.

[10:11] Matt: Dude, tell me.

[10:13] Rory: That’s all I wanted to say about. That just seems terribly important.

[10:16] Matt: I mean, that’s the big question. Are animals, especially animals who are like farm animals, let’s say, are they bored?

[10:27] Rory: Yeah, there’s definitely been studies that show that animals suffer from a lack of stimulus. They could go a little crazy.

[10:39] Matt: Yeah, I think animals can definitely be depressed.

[10:42] Rory: Yeah. But I don’t know if they get bored.

[10:46] Matt: Good question.

[10:47] Rory: I think they just kind of go somewhere.

[10:49] Matt: If they don’t get bored, then that is another superior quality of animals versus humans.

[10:57] Rory: Yeah.

[10:57] Matt: Which makes me think, why do we bother evolving?

[11:02] Rory: Big mistake. Huge. Yeah, kind of. Anyways, today we’re talking about another stupid thing that shows that we’ve probably evolved too far for our own good. Was that too cynical? The white wine.

[11:22] Matt: I think you are pro marriage, which is what we’re talking today.

[11:27] Rory: I am pro marriage. Yeah.

[11:30] Matt: So today we’re going to be talking about marriage, obviously marriage. I mean, it’s the broadest topic. Such a broad topic. So we’re going to really be talking about, like, traditional marriage in the western world. And by traditional, I just mean monogamous, I guess, kind of. Anyway, yeah, we’ll see where we go. But one thing I think that’s really interesting about marriage is that it has been around since ancient times. Man and woman have always been mating and living together. But marriage came about from the rise of agriculture and the idea of ownership of land, and that land should go to heirs. And that’s kind of how marriage as we know it came about. And as societies around the world became more complex, marriage became more formal. Now, marriage, as we know, was for many, many, the majority of human history, not based on love, but more about more economic tilts, more for economic implications, namely property. And that’s kind of where I wanted to start it because I think it’s actually crazy how obsessed humans are with property even now. It’s such a foundation of the human experience. To take away the idea of property would almost to take away society as we know it.

[13:01] Rory: Well, okay, so I am so glad you brought this up because I just heard something so interesting about this. Okay. Now, I think ownership, private property, owning something that’s mine, we think of it as this very. Especially in our sort of, like, anti capitalist, leftist pinko circles that you and I run in. We think of it as, like, a bad thing, and we do extend that out to monogamy. You don’t need to own your partner, man. Love’s not a finite resource, man. But Walter Benyamine said, this is a thing I heard. And he was very big about objects and material reality and collections. He was obsessed with collections and people who collect things. He said that ownership is the most intimate relationship you can have with an object. Now, obviously, he had not met the woman married to the Eiffel Tower, but it got me thinking, and I was like, that is true. When an object is yours, it unlocks a completely new dimension of relationship with it that we simply don’t have with objects that are public or shared or ownerless.

[14:35] Matt: Absolutely. There’s such an added value that comes to that object, a deeper dimension. And, I mean, they’ve done those studies, right, where they ask people to value an object, and they say, oh, $5? And then they say, okay, the object is yours. Can I buy it for you for $5? And they’re like, no.

[15:01] Rory: Like, the same people.

[15:02] Matt: Yeah, the same people, same object. Like, once something is yours, it becomes infinitely more valuable.

[15:09] Rory: Wow. That is so interesting. So, wife as property. In jewish sources, traditional talmudic sources, a wife is not property, but she’s not property. You acquire her. And the text in the Talmud specifically derives the laws of how you acquire a woman from the laws of how you acquire a field. So that makes explicit what you’re talking about with this agricultural connection. I’ve always found that interesting, because a field is not portable property. It’s open, it’s diffuse.

[16:04] Matt: But that’s the thing, is, that’s the property we value most. Our whole society is based on land ownership of land, which is so theoretical.

[16:16] Rory: Yeah.

[16:16] Matt: And it’s like this social contract. Even before there were real contracts, marriage was just a social contract that we all take very seriously.

[16:28] Rory: Yeah.

[16:29] Matt: Like, the fact that we all just buy into this idea of ownership and of marriage is pretty incredible, because it’s just the power of tradition, I guess, and living the way society is set up. And that’s why I think it’s interesting when people are, like, want to, like you said, do away with the idea of property ownership, monogamy. Because I’m like, oh, I don’t think maybe people understand the implications of that. It’s so enormous.

[17:08] Rory: It’s so enormous. And, yeah, I don’t think people fully grasp what it would mean to live. I don’t know. People have done it, like, in the kibutzim in Israel, the kibbutz movement, even children, there was really no private property, and I think there’s a reason why that movement failed. It required extreme ideological devotion. So the first generation who came up with the idea, they were very devoted. The second generation, a little bit, third generation was like, I want to move to the city, or like, oh, if I have this great business idea, I don’t want to just share it with these randos. This privatized capitalist economy prevailed. And I’m not trying to say, like, capitalism is the natural state of man, because I don’t believe that, but I do think that. Well, what I think is the natural ownership is.

[18:13] Matt: Do you? I think more has to do, maybe, I don’t really know about that, but for me, it more has to do with going with the grain. It’s the natural state of man and not living in opposition to it, maybe.

[18:25] Rory: But that was the grain for these people. That’s how they grew up. That was all they knew. And that was a lot of the society for a while. That was a big part of the.

[18:36] Matt: Society for a while, that’s true, but it’s still a small part of the actual big society.

[18:43] Rory: That’s true. I think a desire to have mine say, this is mine, and this isn’t, does have some sort of. I think we have. It’s one of our first things we feel as kids and even like dogs have it. This is interesting. The marriage discussion just quickly became the ownership discussion, because that’s what it is. It’s a mutual ownership.

[19:15] Matt: Yeah, it really is. And to go back to the history of marriage, when I was researching it, I learned that the majority of marriage for most of human history, was mostly just a family affair. And it wasn’t necessarily contractual, like in a formal way, where the state was then, or even religion, but then, because the church, especially the catholic church, was so anti, and maybe you can enlighten us on the jewish side of things, but the church was so anti divorce, they eventually became more involved, and it became a formal ceremony that had to be done by a priest, whereas before, they didn’t have enough priests to go around to be marrying all these peasants. And that kind of begs the question as to why it ever became, why did it ever become a religious thing? Why is marriage a religious thing?

[20:15] Rory: Well, for, I think, a long part of history, religion was just, at least in the jewish world, religion was your state.

[20:26] Matt: Yes.

[20:27] Rory: Especially until the enlightenment, Jews just had autonomy over their own semi autonomy over their own intracommunal affairs. So the rabbinical court was like, yeah, it was your religious court, but it was where you got married and divorced and settled disputes. I think this line between what’s religious and what’s not religious is also very modern things. But, yeah, actually, the Torah does not talk about marriage.

[21:05] Matt: Oh, really?

[21:06] Rory: Yeah. It says when a man takes a woman into his home and it talks about sending her away sometimes those later evolved into concepts, and the rabbinic authorities claimed that this was always the case, but they evolved into concepts of taking means marriage. That’s what they. And sending away means divorce. But it doesn’t seem like it was always the case. It seems like you found a lady, you dragged her into your hovel.

[21:47] Matt: But did you have to ask the dad, the hot father? Was it like a transfer?

[21:52] Rory: Yeah. And you had to give him some.

[21:55] Matt: Silver, so you give him silver. And does she come with anything? A goat?

[22:03] Rory: I don’t know if this is in the Torah or if this is only later, but eventually it becomes that she comes in with property of her own, which can only be inherited through her line.

[22:19] Matt: Okay. That’s kind of what.

[22:21] Rory: Like, he takes another wife, her sons can’t inherit.

[22:24] Matt: What the Greeks were doing, which I learned, greek and roman marriage practices, really informed christian marriage practices, the church’s marriage practices. And one of those practices was monogamy, which is why we don’t live in a polygamous society, really, the western world, because they were monogamous. Greek and Romans were monogamous. Were Jews monogamous as far back?

[22:54] Rory: Jews were not formally monogamous until later. Polygamy was allowed, but it seems like it was frowned upon pretty early.

[23:11] Matt: And I looked in, I was like, why are we a monotonous society? A society that values this society that values women only as property? Not only as property, but do they value women only as property? That was my question, sort of. And I guess it had to do with how Romans and Greeks, because of their emphasis on just the way their philosophy was, was more egalitarian. So they viewed women as. I think that’s where women have been throughout the history of the world. Like, not quite a cow, not quite a person. That’s what the Britney Spears song should have been. Not quite a person.

[23:51] Rory: Well, there’s actually this great academic essay exploring, is woman chattel or person in jewish law? And the answer is both. And it depends on her marital status. So the most person that a woman can be in traditional jewish law is the widow or the divorcee.

[24:24] Matt: Oh, okay.

[24:25] Rory: Yeah. Because her father has no say, her husband’s out of the picture.

[24:33] Matt: Right.

[24:35] Rory: And the married woman and the young girl are both in some state of being between chattel and person. Now, not fully chattel. A woman has to consent to a marriage. She can say no, but also, a lot of her life is controlled by either her father or her husband, so not quite full. Obviously, she’s a person. What we’re talking about here is legal personhood.

[25:06] Matt: We’re talking about. Obviously, I feel like a person. So it’s interesting to be discussing this in this, because I’m like, no, I’m pretty sure I’m a person.

[25:20] Rory: No, it’s just like the concept of legal personhood, being subject to certain nations and having certain rights in a fully autonomous way. Obviously, we at the how to be podcast have taken firm stance that women are people since about our 15th episode. Before that, we were still having big policy discussions around that, but after soul searching, we’ve been quite unambiguous on the matter.

[25:48] Matt: But, yeah, this begs the question about, like, where did this. Now, marriage is nothing to do with. I mean, well, does it have nothing to do. But we say it has nothing to do with economic ties. Right? And you marry for love. And that came about through enlightenment, which you mentioned, and the idea that marriage could be something more, have an emotional component. And then also, which we talked about in the community episode, the big change of sort of leaving these strong communities, moving into cities, the industrial revolution, which led to the rise of individualism, that led to the rise of marriage for love. But I think even in the Enlightenment period, with this emphasis on happiness, your marriage should be fulfilling. Your family life is more than just an economic structure. You were expected to marry someone, like, you could choose among a group of people who are appropriate was kind of the first difference, versus just someone who was your father made a contract with.

[26:59] Rory: Yeah, but it’s not like you were.

[27:02] Matt: Allowed to marry the blacksmith’s daughter if you were a nobleman. You can go romping in the fields and spinnies with her.

[27:15] Rory: I mean, there is the wonderful story of Rahel, who was the daughter of a very prominent jew in the year, I don’t know, 100 or something, and ran away to be with the penniless shepherd Rabbi Akiva, who later became the great sage. Rabbi Akiva, I think we like to say these things like, marriage was never about love before, so and so a point. And we sort of pretend that it’s all cultural, like, oh, before. But I think the human spirit does endure through the ages.

[28:04] Matt: See, I get the sense that, yes, there was a one off story here and there, but most average people were like not experiencing a Tristan and his old type of love?

[28:20] Rory: No, but even today they aren’t. Today, most people marry someone that is appropriate, their same race, their same socioeconomic status. Probably they went to college with them. Know, most people are not having Tristan and his old relationships now, but they still feel love. And also, if you really got to the bottom of why people want to get married, I think we would find that those financial questions are still a big part of it today. What do you picture when you picture the life you want? Oh, I picture this type of house and my husband and the kids, and we go to the beach on the weekend. It’s tinged with romance, but it’s not completely divorced from the economic. And I think probably throughout history, it’s like it was always sort of a blending of, like, in the Jane Austen books. They’re like, my every happiness depends on this going. Right. I think what they mean there, in some ways is, like, I want my life to go a certain way.

[29:29] Matt: Yeah, but I’m not talking about Jane Austen. I’m talking about way before that. I think Jane Austen had the rise of more, like, romantic love, and then even before that, in the high middle ages formulation of chivalry and knighthood. I think that you’re right. I think the idea of romantic love has been around maybe since the year 100, even earlier.

[29:56] Rory: Have you ever read song of songs in the Bible? Beautiful, erotic love poem?

[30:03] Matt: Yeah. Of course. We’ve all always experienced and had love, but maybe it wasn’t always seen as going hand in hand with marriage. Maybe even Tristan and he’s old weren’t married. They were having an affair, but they were just talking. What?

[30:24] Rory: They were just talking.

[30:25] Matt: It was an emotional affair, which is actually even worse than a physical fair. I’d rather my husband have a one night stand than being an emotional affair anyway.

[30:38] Rory: Coworker.

[30:39] Matt: Yeah. I think that people fall in love, right, with people who are like them because you have to like, what is love? It’s sort of commonality. There’s a huge component of that is of understanding the other person and feeling understood. And in order to do that, you end up finding people who are like you. Like they have a similar background as you, or they have similar values as you because you both went to this type of school and you have these types of friends. And so that makes a lot of sense to me that people choose people who are, especially if you’re religious, you want to be with someone religious.

[31:17] Rory: Et like, you know, we would love to think that it goes down the way it goes in Cinderella, where the prince marries the girl sweeping the know or whatever, she was mopping the floors. But in know, a girl who had been subjected to the life that Cinderella had been subjected to would probably be a lot more coarse. And the prince, she would be like, oi, oi, prince. These are my prince. This palace is huge.

[31:52] Matt: I have to play this whole palace. Prince.

[31:57] Rory: Like her. He just like, no. She was so sweet, that Leslie Ann Warren. So sweet and refined.

[32:06] Matt: Are you talking about the Rogers and Hammerstein?

[32:08] Rory: Oh, of course. The song I sing every time I.

[32:13] Matt: Sweep the floor in my own little corner. That one, yeah. You found my love.

[32:21] Rory: My partner said something interesting. There was also a line similar to this in that terrible Lori Moore book I read recently. But my partner said, two people living a life together, it’s a crazy idea. It is a crazy thing.

[32:40] Matt: It is. And it’s so universal. That’s what I learned when I looked into marriage. Like every culture since almost the dawn of time, save for this one culture in China, this one small group in China has marriage.

[32:57] Rory: What do those chinese people do?

[33:00] Matt: They get pregnant. The women get pregnant, and then the father is not involved in any way of raising the children or living with them or supporting them in any way. They instead have, like, female societies with their children, where you live with your mom and your sister, and occasionally the man comes for important events in the child’s life.

[33:24] Rory: How does that sound to you?

[33:26] Matt: I don’t get how it happens. I just don’t get it because it’s like, how do these people make money if they have children? The mom is, what are these men doing with all their money?

[33:37] Rory: Yeah, I need more information from a.

[33:39] Matt: Financial standpoint, I forget. Well, let me google the chinese people who don’t get married. But apparently, based on this, chinese people are not getting married.

[33:49] Rory: I knew that’s what would come up. The generation of chinese gen Zers aren’t interested in marriage and kids. Okay, so you famously don’t want to get married. Why don’t you talk to the audience about that? Also, it’s like you’re in a long term, committed, monogamous relationship. Are you married? Are you just married? What is it about the marriage that you’re not interested in?

[34:25] Matt: I don’t want to seem like I’m anti marriage because I’m not married. So because I’m opting out of this thing, I think people maybe think maybe they feel like I judge marriage or something like that. And I’m doing an episode on marriage. I don’t want to come across that way, because I love weddings, and I think it’s great that people want to get married, but for me, I don’t really know why I don’t want to get married. I just really don’t want to. I have no desire to. And I think it’s interesting that so many people still do, because marriage, as we’ve been talking about, just used to mean something so different, and now we still have it. But the meaning, is it even the same thing as it once was? It’s the same word, but it’s almost devoid of its original meaning.

[35:18] Rory: But isn’t kind of everything like that, like friendship and religion? Okay, religion is a big one. Also like God. Our concept of God has changed so.

[35:29] Matt: Much, of course, but people are opting. More people are opting out of God, and less people are, in America, opting out of marriage. I read somewhere that only 8% of white women, I. E. Me, over the age of 35, are unmarried. Okay, that’s incredible to me. I think it’s really interesting that people still really want to do it when to me, it’s completely unnecessary. And it seems very burdensome to have to make all these decisions about what your wedding is going to look like. Perhaps. But I also don’t want a marriage. I don’t want a marriage. I like being what I have, liking what I have.

[36:10] Rory: So it’s not just the wedding, because the wedding. Yeah, there’s the wedding and there’s the marriage.

[36:16] Matt: Do you think that people would get married as much if they couldn’t have these big weddings?

[36:22] Rory: It’s an incredibly interesting. Yeah. Like, do people want. I don’t. Like, I saw this person on Facebook recently post like, that they’ve gotten pregnant. They just got married, like, a few months ago. And I was like, okay, for some people, the wedding does signify, like, okay, let’s get moving on this new stage of our lives. Right? It’s a starting line. Whereas I think in my world, or in the way I think of things, it doesn’t matter so much. Like which side of the baby the wedding is on. I was almost like, when I saw the post, I was like, isn’t there something a little silly about. It’s like, you did this thing, and now all of a sudden you do this other thing. There’s a silliness to it. I mean, there’s a silliness to everything if you think about it too much.

[37:27] Matt: It’s a weird social contract that we all have, like, this weird tradition that we all still really buy into. But weddings in particular are pretty interesting, because the history of them and the way we do them now isn’t that actually long. It’s actually fake history.

[37:46] Rory: Traditiono essay on weddings, if you haven’t already.

[37:53] Matt: It’s also like, yeah, it’s like this big day where you have to make all these decisions and it costs a fortune. The average cost of weddings in 2021 was $28,000, which I think is low. Most of my friends, I think, have spent more around the 50 mark.

[38:12] Rory: Yeah. It’s so crazy. Okay. I really think it should go back to what it was. You wear the best frock in your closet. You gather your close friends and family, the ones who you live with and near.

[38:37] Matt: Yeah. Proximity determines the guest.

[38:39] Rory: Proximity. You cook a big lunch, you do it in your yard, and you call it a day.

[38:46] Matt: It’s already starting to sound expensive just by feeding people, though.

[38:49] Rory: But, yeah, I think it should have the same. It should be like a kid’s birthday party. Okay. You’re going to spend a little bit of money on your kid’s birthday party.

[39:03] Matt: Sure.

[39:04] Rory: Cake. You’re feeding a bunch of people, you have to buy burgers. I don’t know, but at the end of the day, it’s an afternoon in your yard.

[39:12] Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Everyone talks about the outrageous cost of weddings, but what I think happens is everyone gets engaged and is like, I’m just going to have a really simple wedding. And then it just starts adding up so quickly and you’re mid planning that you just keep going. It’s like your delirious state of spending insane amounts of money. And if you take time to reflect, it won’t happen. So you just keep rolling with it.

[39:43] Rory: Yeah. And each partner might have different things where they consider the extravagance to be and what they consider to be, like, the part that can be sacrificed. Like, the woman might want a really nice dress because women like dresses.

[40:05] Matt: Sure. Made out of paper.

[40:08] Rory: Yeah. But the man might say, like, I don’t want a small guest list. I need my boss, my bros, my frat bros, my frat bros, my hot yoga teacher. I don’t know who this character is, but he does hot yoga and connected with his teacher outside of class.

[40:33] Matt: Do you know what the average cost of a funeral was?

[40:36] Rory: How much?

[40:37] Matt: 7000.

[40:38] Rory: Yeah. So the funeral is higher than the kid’s birthday party. I think that would also be a reasonable place to get this thing to. So what do you need for a funeral? You have a special place. You got a little hall. Now we’re involving a hall.

[41:00] Matt: Now we’re involving a hall. You’re involving a church basement, a church gym.

[41:05] Rory: Yeah, a wreck. And there’s more people that you’re feeding. Yeah, we’ll see. I plan on having a wedding in my life and even who knows if I’ll manage to keep it at the kids birthday level.

[41:27] Matt: Well, why do you want to get married? Is it because it’s a religious thing?

[41:32] Rory: No, for me, I don’t really know why. I just do. I just do. I just feel like I want to. Yeah. I do not have a good reason for this.

[41:49] Matt: I have a good reason to not want to get married. I just don’t. I don’t want to get married.

[41:53] Rory: Yeah, and maybe that’s what it boils down to. You just want to or you don’t. I think weddings are really nice. I like weddings and I want to have one.

[42:01] Matt: Yeah, I like weddings too. And I actually do really like going to them. Great time to see people dress up. I love to dress up. I just don’t want one. Even though I actually enjoy being the center of attention.

[42:14] Rory: I’m going to a wedding soon and I really need to try on my suit. Like tonight, I’m like, do I have to go in a crash wedding? I can’t afford a new suit.

[42:23] Matt: Wait, so you have to do something after this podcast and I. Oh, I have to call my psychic. Okay, you’re going to try on your suit. I’m going to call my psychic after we’re done recording.

[42:35] Rory: I’m scared. The other day, did I tell you about this? The kid on the elevator?

[42:42] Matt: No.

[42:44] Rory: I was riding down the elevator and the door opens on, not the bottom floor. Someone else is getting on, and this little kid with his mom get on and the kid sees me and he goes. And then he was so sweet. He goes, sorry, I was scared. I thought you were a monster. Because big. And then his mom was like very big. They weren’t like native Hebrew speakers. So I’m like, they don’t mean fat.

[43:20] Matt: They do not mean fat. You’re a six foot plus man. You read tall.

[43:27] Rory: Big. Now I like, hear his voice ringing in my ears every time.

[43:33] Matt: Big. You don’t have a husband. Sorry.

[43:40] Rory: And he was so polite. Sorry. I thought you were a monster.

[43:52] Matt: But I do think it’s interesting that people still do want to get married at the rates that they are getting married. Most people do get married, but I also like marriage because it’s kind of Lindy and I’m sort of anti getting rid of things that we as humans have been doing for a really long time. Even if I’m not going to participate.

[44:11] Rory: Well, okay, let’s get real about something here. This life business is very hard to do on one’s own. So I think partnership is tried and true. We need this. It is not good for a man to be alone, as the Bible says.

[44:39] Matt: Well, of course we know that it’s true that men are healthier if they’re married and women are unhealthier if they’re married.

[44:48] Rory: Yeah.

[44:49] Matt: What does that say?

[44:50] Rory: Matt says that all women should aspire to be tackling childless stand up comedians like Chelsea Handler.

[45:04] Matt: She’s looking good.

[45:05] Rory: She is looking good. So, yeah, I think partnership is good for humans, and I think that it’s such, as I said before, it’s such a radical thing, two people living a life together. They think it requires an extreme level of commitment and dedication to make it work.

[45:34] Matt: But I would say that I’m pretty committed and dedicated. Sands the contract.

[45:41] Rory: Yeah, I’m thinking about it. I’m not thinking about whether or not you are or aren’t. I obviously think you are. But does the contract do anything? Well, I’ll tell you what the contract does do in jewish law, but again, this is. No, some of this still applies today. It gives you legal protections.

[46:06] Matt: Oh, absolutely. I mean, that’s still the case in the law.

[46:10] Rory: Law, yeah, it gives you legal protections. It makes sure that if you bring a child into the world through this partnership, that I guess you can have like child support and paternity. But that’s pretty recent paternity tests anyways. Women are sometimes vulnerable in this society.

[46:36] Matt: Well, that’s the interesting thing, is what.

[46:38] Rory: She’S owed and what she gets.

[46:41] Matt: That’s the interesting thing about marriage for women, it’s like this deeply patriarchal union that does not favor their interests, but it favors their interests more than not being married somehow.

[46:55] Rory: I don’t know. Does it not favor their interests? Well, you’re mail ticket lady.

[47:02] Matt: I don’t think it really does favor your interests. Historically, I think it would have been better if women could open a credit card in their own name without being married.

[47:10] Rory: Okay, but like we said in this chinese society, how are the women getting that elk meat?

[47:19] Matt: Well, that’s what I’m saying. Both sides are bad for women.

[47:23] Rory: So I think the marriage favors does consider the woman’s interest by making sure she has access to elk meat.

[47:34] Matt: Sure, but it’s not as favorable for men. It’s way more favorable for men to be married.

[47:39] Rory: Men can get their own elk meat. Historically, what do men need that they can’t get from each other.

[47:47] Matt: Oh, says you. So you’re saying marriage isn’t patriarchal or doesn’t have any downsides for women?

[47:54] Rory: I’m not saying it doesn’t have downsides for women, but I think a huge part of its purpose is for women to have alchemy. Yes. To create a partnership based on mutual interest.

[48:10] Matt: Yeah. But I think that women were always getting the short stick, end of the stick in life, and therefore in marriage. They couldn’t inherit their husband’s property necessarily. If he died, it would have to go to his firstborn son. Yeah, that’s not good. That doesn’t favor women.

[48:31] Rory: No.

[48:32] Matt: And on and on and so forth and so on. Many laws like that, not being allowed to divorce, but a husband’s allowed to divorce you.

[48:42] Rory: Well, yeah, that’s not very good.

[48:45] Matt: But also being single for most of history has also been bad for women. You’re a burden to your father, as he often would remind you. Or like I said, you couldn’t get a credit card or a loan or buy a house or anything.

[49:01] Rory: Yeah. Until the 90s when it became fun to be single.

[49:06] Matt: That is sick.

[49:07] Rory: Then all of a sudden, the single.

[49:10] Matt: Girl, you’re just at the mercy of this person who you married, who you don’t know very well, and if they don’t treat you well, you’re ******. No, it is serious. It’s real. It’s very real that women have been burdened by this institution or just by being women and not fully seen as more than a cow, less than a person.

[49:32] Rory: Yeah, absolutely. I guess what I’m wondering, though is, is the fact that it’s an unfair contract mean that it would be better to not have a contract, though. Do you know what I’m saying?

[49:49] Matt: Well, that’s what I’m wondering. I’m like, well, it sucks there are legal protections more for women if you’re married. Right. You get alimony in addition to child support. You may have to split your assets in a no fault state. I mean, it depends on the state, depends on the laws. There’s a lot of factors, so it’s hard to make a sweeping generalization, but at the same time, I just can’t believe it. I don’t know. Like, you’re married to someone and they would treat you that badly. It happens all the time. What’s wrong with people?

[50:23] Rory: I mean, people can be terrible.

[50:26] Matt: Jesus. And then obviously men does city, USA are way more likely to remarry after getting divorced. And I think that says a lot.

[50:37] Rory: Yeah. The woman is like, not going to do that again.

[50:40] Matt: Yeah. I mean, my mom always says if there’s a divorced woman who gets remarried, it means they weren’t married long enough.

[50:50] Rory: Interesting. Yeah. It’s like Charlote in sex in the know. Tired of being a momager for maid for Lily.

[51:00] Matt: One thing that. So do you think people would even get married nowadays? We’re modern. What if divorce didn’t exist, but marriage still existed? Would people get married?

[51:10] Rory: No. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

[51:14] Matt: Yeah. So what is marriage now? That if you can get divorced.

[51:19] Rory: I also don’t think people should be getting married according to jewish law anymore either. That’s my belief as a future rabbi.

[51:29] Matt: Okay.

[51:30] Rory: I think we need to draft a whole new contract from scratch. I think the old one is unworkable, frankly. Now, this is interesting. There’s something in Judaism called a concubine contract from back in the day. It hasn’t been in use for, obviously, like, millennia, but people have started bringing it back because the concubine woman has more rights in her contract than in the marriage contract. Doesn’t have to wait for a divorce. Either partner can dissolve it.

[52:12] Matt: See, she’s Louise. Let’s bring that back. Yeah, I guess. I don’t know.

[52:18] Rory: So I definitely nature. The idea two people committing to each other is not the issue. It’s the nature of the commitment, which is the issue. So if the nature of the commitment was, once you’re in, you can never get out. I don’t think a single person I know would do that if they told you. A lot of people, if you ask them, would be like, yeah, marriage is forever and we’re never going to get divorced.

[52:51] Matt: Yeah.

[52:52] Rory: But I think if you ask those same people, okay, instead of wedding rings, we’re doing tramp stamps, tattoos of each other’s names that can never be removed. They probably wouldn’t agree to that. Somewhere in our mind, we know that this is a dissolvable contract. Even if you’re deeply committed to it.

[53:15] Matt: Absolutely. I think the only people who would get married then would be like, 20 year olds.

[53:21] Rory: Fools.

[53:22] Matt: I think only fools would get married. It’s interesting because divorce in America is so very, so much based on demographic information. So the demographic least likely to get divorced? Educated white women who what?

[53:45] Rory: Jewish Wiccans.

[53:46] Matt: Jewish Wiccans. If only it got down there. And the religion less least likely to get divorced. Hindus. And that makes sense, I think, maybe. And as your income increases, you’re less likely to get divorced. So once your household income reaches 200,000, the divorce rate remains steady at like 30% but then it starts to decline again when you reach 600,000, and then it becomes 25%, but then once you exceed 600,000, you’re back up again. Yeah, well, the super rich love to move apartments and houses all the time for some reason. And they love to get divorced.

[54:42] Rory: Yeah, because it’s easy. Because both of those things become easy. If you could move and you can afford any place and you don’t actually pack any boxes. Why not? And which is the religion? I already know the answer to this, because you told me which is the religion most likely to get divorced?

[55:02] Matt: Oh, evangelicals, which I love.

[55:06] Rory: Yeah.

[55:06] Matt: Evangelicals are so high and mighty about an open womb policy to their women and serving their man and those traditional gender roles of marriage, I’m like, yeah, those are not good, actually.

[55:22] Rory: Yeah. That is not a good contract that people actually like living in.

[55:29] Matt: I don’t know. Is marriage something we as a society should value and encourage?

[55:35] Rory: I don’t think we should be in a society that has so utterly devalued all kinds of commitments. Yeah, I don’t think we should devalue this one.

[55:48] Matt: So we should be encouraging marriage, like, making it more desirable, you think?

[55:53] Rory: Yeah, I think as a society, we should make it more desirable. It’s already pretty desirable. You got to have a big party. You get all these gifts.

[56:02] Matt: See, that makes it undesirable to me.

[56:04] Rory: But, yeah, you get to stay in the big room when you go on vacations with your friends.

[56:10] Matt: That’s if you have kids.

[56:14] Rory: If there’s no one with kids, though, it goes to the married couple.

[56:19] Matt: It’s so hard to be a single woman in this world. That sucks. You don’t get anything. It’s trash, trash, trash.

[56:26] Rory: I know. That’s why when Carrie Bradshaw married herself and registered at Manolo Blanick. It’s a great point.

[56:36] Matt: This world is not set up for the single woman, and now she has to marry for love.

[56:43] Rory: Okay, let’s think about it. Like, when I graduate from rabbinical school, I’ll have some sort of party. I’ll be duly celebrated.

[56:53] Matt: No, you won’t.

[56:55] Rory: By my family with a little cake and a meal. But it will be a child’s birthday level.

[57:04] Matt: Exactly. You won’t have the celebration of, like, you get to literally put on the Internet what gifts you want everyone to buy you.

[57:13] Rory: Yeah. So I don’t think the problem is that single people don’t get that. I think the whole thing is too much. Now, maybe that contradicts with what I just said about us wanting to induce this in society. But I do think it’s too much. And I think that, honestly, we would be so liberated as a people if we could be liberated from the fact that meeting the love of your life means paying a $50,000 tax.

[57:56] Matt: It doesn’t have to get married.

[58:00] Rory: And event halls.

[58:04] Matt: You just don’t have to get married. I think my opinion, if you’re the type of person who’s going to commit to a person, marriage isn’t going to influence that either way. Either you could be married and very uncommitted or not married and very committed, especially now that we have divorce, no fault divorce, or getting the state involved in your breakup.

[58:28] Rory: Yeah.

[58:29] Matt: But again, I don’t know. I feel so conflicted because I’m like. I like the idea of marriage because it’s so old and it seems so human.

[58:38] Rory: Old, venerable institution.

[58:40] Matt: But we’ve degraded it so much that it’s like, what even is it anymore?

[58:48] Rory: It’s always been degraded to a certain extent, just in different ways. It reflects the degradations inherent to the institution, to our time.

[59:00] Matt: To our time.

[59:01] Rory: Yeah.

[59:02] Matt: Well, what’s your relationship with marriage? As a gay man who couldn’t get married for so long, like, how did you view marriage?

[59:09] Rory: Well, I always believed that it would be there for me by the time I needed to avail myself of it because I had an unflailing belief in historical progress as a child, which I no longer have.

[59:24] Matt: So you manifested gay marriage for this country?

[59:27] Rory: Yeah. By the time I’m getting gay married, there will be gay marriage. And you know what? So far, it seems that I was right. I hope I don’t miss the boat. You never know. Yeah. It’s an interesting thing because it’s like the gay marriage is not Lindy, but according to Gia Tolentino, it tends to be more successful in at least a couple metrics. The only one I’m really remembering from her essay right now is that gay married couples, when asked if there’s a fair distribution of labor in their house, say yes and feel that there is, even when there isn’t.

[01:00:23] Matt: Oh, interesting.

[01:00:27] Rory: They’re more likely to be doing things roughly 50 50. But even in a household that’s doing 70 30 or doing different things, there’s no resentment. Probably because it’s happening based on affinity.

[01:00:44] Matt: Like, gay men love to clean, fight over who gets to do the floors.

[01:00:51] Rory: No, I’m saying, like, one of them probably naturally does more and the other naturally does less. Rather than in a straight marriage, where affinity doesn’t matter, the woman is expected to shoulder the brunt of the domestic labor. So that breeds frustration and resentment.

[01:01:12] Matt: Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing, is, like, household labor in a household where both parties partners work is getting more and more even. But among the couples where it’s not even, obviously, it’s always the woman taking on more responsibility. It’s never the man. Not never, but statistically, very rare, especially when it comes to all things to do with childcare. So can I tell you, though, that half of Gen Zers and millennials say gay and lesbian couples being allowed to marry is a good thing for our society? Only half, according to the US Census Bureau.

[01:01:52] Rory: What did the other half say?

[01:01:54] Matt: I don’t know. 33% of Jahan Xers and 27% of boomers. This is from 2019, so maybe a lot. I mean, I do think that on the gay marriage issue, there’s a lot of traction towards more support, but I still think that’s incredibly low.

[01:02:14] Rory: That’s incredibly low. I’m shocked. I’m like, okay, I probably won’t have this right for very long, then.

[01:02:20] Matt: It’s really ******* crazy.

[01:02:23] Rory: Not sounds like a stable majority. The kind of stable majority that I’m looking for.

[01:02:29] Matt: Maybe it’s the way they phrase the question, good for society.

[01:02:34] Rory: Yeah. And Gen Zers are like, no, society.

[01:02:39] Matt: Is bad in and of itself.

[01:02:41] Rory: Yeah, let’s hope that’s the reason. But also, other studies say that 110% of Gen Zers identify as LGBTQ.

[01:02:54] Matt: Yeah, you’re right.

[01:02:56] Rory: So surveys are fake.

[01:02:58] Matt: Well, they’re only as good as the questions and the sample group.

[01:03:01] Rory: The truth is unknowable.

[01:03:04] Matt: Okay, so what do you think, Matt? Anything more you have to say about marriage?

[01:03:08] Rory: I would say don’t be afraid to own and be know. Like in breakfast at Tiffany’s, she doesn’t want anyone to put her in a cage. But the message is, no. That’s what love is. It means two people belong to one another.

[01:03:28] Matt: Yeah. I would say I am pro marriage, if you want to get married, but you really don’t have to. I am fascinated why more people aren’t like me. I don’t know very many people in long term relationships who are not on a marriage track.

[01:03:46] Rory: Yeah, I think we’re lemmings also.

[01:03:49] Matt: Yeah.

[01:03:50] Rory: This is my new theory, is that there’s actually no such thing as counterculture. Like, we’re all doing the exact same thing, and we just use different words, and we maybe style ourselves a little differently, have different sensibilities, but we’re all doing the same thing. We’re eating pasta. We’re getting married.

[01:04:12] Matt: Yeah, except for Sam hates pasta.

[01:04:14] Rory: We’re sleeping at night.

[01:04:18] Matt: No, I completely agree. I’m all about monoculture, don’t get me wrong. But that’s the interesting thing about me. I love being normal and doing the same thing as my neighbors. And in many ways, in practice, I am. It’s just I don’t have a certificate for.

[01:04:31] Rory: Yeah, yeah. You’re doing the same thing, too. Really?

[01:04:34] Matt: Yeah, I absolutely just. I’m surprised that so many people want the certificate. I find it interesting.

[01:04:41] Rory: Yeah. And there’s another phenomenon here in Israel where all marriage has to take place through the central rabbinet. There’s no secular marriage, and secular people hate this. It means it can be humiliating. You have to jump through hoops for them. If you’re not religious, you don’t want it. But there actually is a secular option. But it’s not called marriage. It has all the same rights.

[01:05:20] Matt: Okay.

[01:05:21] Rory: Any two people can do it, and it’s not called marriage. It’s just like, you are legally obligated to each other and you have certain rights. No one does it. No one is interested.

[01:05:34] Matt: So interesting. Because Sam and I looked into that. Like, if we can get a civil union.

[01:05:40] Rory: Yeah.

[01:05:41] Matt: And we can’t. In California, either you have to be married or you have to be over 65 to qualify for a civil union.

[01:05:49] Rory: Yeah. When I asked my friend about it, because I actually have one friend who did it, and she’s like the only person I’ve ever heard of doing this, she said, people want the little m on their id card.

[01:06:04] Matt: Oh, that’s on your id in Israel?

[01:06:07] Rory: Yeah. Married or single?

[01:06:09] Matt: Wow. That’s a whole other level.

[01:06:12] Rory: Yeah.

[01:06:13] Matt: Wow, that’s really interesting. Yeah. People want them or they don’t want them. Like me, I’m like, oh, I get civil union. The word carries a lot of meaning.

[01:06:24] Rory: Yeah.

[01:06:25] Matt: It’s a question of semantics, I guess.

[01:06:27] Rory: Yeah. I think it should all be civil unions.

[01:06:31] Matt: Completely agree.

[01:06:33] Rory: And marriage can be like, what, your church? Exactly. A sacrament. Yes. And then you dodge so many questions, like, pretty soon we’re going to have to have a big public debate in America. I don’t know when it’s going to happen, but soon. About multiple marriage. It is coming down the pipeline at us, mark my words. No, I don’t want to have to have that debate. If this was civil unions, then, sure, let anyone do it. You could have a person, two elderly sisters who never took a husband but want to inherit each other and each other’s know.

[01:07:17] Matt: Oh, my gosh. Well, I will say, that’s another two.

[01:07:22] Rory: Best friends we can be grateful for.

[01:07:24] Matt: The catholic church for. I know we know one of things we’re not grateful for, but they were really big proponents of not marrying your family. That’s one of the reasons why we don’t. And I am grateful for that.

[01:07:36] Rory: Yeah, thankfully, I don’t think that’s coming down the pipeline at us.

[01:07:42] Matt: Except for what you just said, two sisters who want to inherit each other’s cats.

[01:07:47] Rory: Well, I’m saying I think any two people should be able to legally say basically, this is almost like an upgraded in case of emergency contact.

[01:07:59] Matt: Oh, see, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying handle that in your will. Put your will together if you want your sister to inherit your guests. This is romantic partnership without.

[01:08:10] Rory: Okay.

[01:08:10] Matt: Yeah.

[01:08:12] Rory: So in your system, the civil unions, it couldn’t be two best friends who decide that this is the relationship I want in my life.

[01:08:21] Matt: Well, I’m not going to get too into people’s bedrooms. I just think it can’t be family members. If you want to have a sexless marriage, even I don’t care.

[01:08:31] Rory: You’re right. Me family members is a bad idea. Just so everyone knows, when I said that, I was not imagining that the sisters were romantically involved. Two old spinsters who decided, this is it for us or sexually involved. They’re just sisters. Does everyone understand what I was going for there?

[01:08:56] Matt: Yeah, we get it. No, I think we get it. So, yeah, I think I’m with you. Leave marriage to the religion. Very optional. Highly optional.

[01:09:06] Rory: Yeah.

[01:09:07] Matt: Let’s get a more civil, secular version of it. Yeah, that’s pretty expansive.

[01:09:13] Rory: Pretty expansive. I think you should be able to have up to how many spouses?

[01:09:19] Matt: No, I’m here for monogamy, too. I’m like the Catholic Church.

[01:09:23] Rory: Then we’re going to have to have the big public discussion.

[01:09:26] Matt: Well.

[01:09:29] Rory: And let me tell you, the democratic party is just going to get right on board with the multiple marriage.

[01:09:37] Matt: I’m anti multiple marriage. I’m like, handle that in your will also.

[01:09:41] Rory: Yeah, I think the civil union should have an option for up to four people a square.

[01:09:49] Matt: Why does it have to stop at four? Matt, the debate’s coming.

[01:09:54] Rory: I’m thinking about citizenship. Okay, maybe unlimited, but you can only sponsor citizenship for two people. Otherwise, you could just be using this as a mechanism to just wildly import.

[01:10:07] Matt: People, especially if you could marry family members.

[01:10:12] Rory: It’s not marriage. Okay, I’m not suggesting marrying family members.

[01:10:21] Matt: See, that is not where I go. I am. I think that that’s funny. That’s where you go. Citizenship.

[01:10:29] Rory: I’m trying to think of what the objections might be. So, yeah, I say, I don’t know. Pick a number. Four, three. I don’t know, something.

[01:10:43] Matt: Okay. It just gets so complicated because it’s like you’re married to two people, and what if they’re married to two other people, but you’re not married to those people?

[01:10:52] Rory: Oh, a chain marriage.

[01:10:56] Matt: This is a matter of logistics. I don’t think that we, as society, should be supporting complicated matters like this.

[01:11:04] Rory: You could have a closed loop amendment.

[01:11:07] Matt: Yeah, it has to be a keep it simple, stupid policy.

[01:11:11] Rory: No, I think a marriage. Let’s say this is how you solve that. You can only belong to one marriage, and a marriage can have multiple members.

[01:11:22] Matt: Okay.

[01:11:23] Rory: Or you can only belong to one union, and the union can have multiple members.

[01:11:28] Matt: We’ll see. So, obviously, marriage, it’s fraught. It’s fraught. It needs an update. I think that’s what we think.

[01:11:34] Rory: Yeah.

[01:11:35] Matt: But God bless if you are looking for it.

[01:11:38] Rory: God bless. Yeah. Make the most of it.

[01:11:42] Matt: Talk to you later. Matt.

[01:11:43] Rory: Talk to you later. Channel.