Ghosts

[00:22] Matt: Name is Matt Schultz.

[00:24] Rory: And this is how to be the.

[00:26] Matt: Podcast where we discuss ancient wisdom, modern hacks, paperback self help books, and pithy.

[00:33] Rory: Platitudes in the hopes of figuring out the best way to live this one precious and wild life.

[00:41] Matt: Does Halloween always leave you feeling haunted? Are you curious to peek behind the veil and see what’s on the other side? If so, join us as we discuss ghost.

[01:14] Rory: Hello, Matthew. Hello.

[01:16] Matt: Roar.

[01:18] Rory: Oh, what are you drinking?

[01:20] Matt: Some orvieto classico.

[01:23] Rory: What’s that? Wine?

[01:25] Matt: White wine.

[01:26] Rory: Oh, is that a type of wine?

[01:29] Matt: Or Vieto, I believe Orvieto is a type of wine.

[01:33] Rory: Never heard of it?

[01:35] Matt: No.

[01:36] Rory: Is it a famous grecian wine?

[01:39] Matt: Merlot? I’ve never heard of it. Did they just invent it?

[01:43] Rory: What’s that? Don’t know. Anyway, I don’t know if I’ve ever had Merlot.

[01:54] Matt: I steer clear of it for some reason. I don’t really know what it is, but I have a sense that I don’t like it.

[02:00] Rory: I guess it’s like the chardonnay of red wine is how it feels to me, like, it used to be like wedding wine. That’s why I don’t drink it. But I have no idea if it’s actually. Anyway, now I feel like wedding wine is Cabernet and pinot Grigio.

[02:21] Matt: I hate a cab.

[02:23] Rory: Oh, you do?

[02:24] Matt: Why go Merlot when you can take a cab?

[02:30] Rory: Do you hate cabernet?

[02:33] Matt: Well, I really don’t like red wine.

[02:35] Rory: You don’t like red wine?

[02:37] Matt: No, I actually will not drink it.

[02:40] Rory: Oh, my God. I can’t even fathom that just because I drink anything.

[02:48] Matt: She cooks her wine. She even sometimes puts some in the food.

[02:54] Rory: Is that a napkin that you read?

[02:57] Matt: Yeah, it’s like a little. Someone had it on their wall in a kitchen I was recently in.

[03:04] Rory: Sure. So you know what I’ve been thinking about lately? Well, I’ve thought about this my whole life. When once you said we used to just let the rich be rich and they didn’t have to work.

[03:17] Matt: Yeah.

[03:18] Rory: That was like, the whole thing is like, rich people don’t work. If you are poor, you have to work.

[03:25] Matt: Yeah.

[03:26] Rory: If you don’t have family money, if you don’t have generational wealth. But nowadays, people with generational wealth still work. Sometimes normal jobs. Like New York magazine came out with this piece, like the 50 most influential New Yorkers you don’t know about. And I don’t know, it was pretty lame and not interesting, but this one woman is like, rich, baby. I don’t want to say Nepo, but grandfather founded Citibank. Mother this, father that, brother Da. And she sells real estate.

[04:06] Matt: Yeah. Why?

[04:07] Rory: No, she sells high end real estate.

[04:12] Matt: Yeah. Why are you doing that?

[04:14] Rory: I get it if you want to be, like, an actress or artist or something like that, but a job like real estate, where are your jollies? It’s like the paperwork, the sale.

[04:31] Matt: Yeah, it’s very confusing.

[04:35] Rory: Not that real estate isn’t seem like an interesting job for someone who wants to do it for the money. Like, oh, yeah, you sell real estate, you make good money. It’s a good job. You know what I mean?

[04:46] Matt: But just the thrill of the hunt.

[04:49] Rory: It’s like, if it’s truly not about the money, what are you doing?

[04:52] Matt: Buy this house today, and I’ll donate the commission to the charity of your choice.

[04:58] Rory: What’s the point of that?

[05:00] Matt: Wouldn’t that be an interesting approach?

[05:02] Rory: Very high pressure.

[05:05] Matt: Very high pressure. But also, you would trust that person. Listen, I don’t need this commission, okay? I’ll donate it to the charity of your choice. I just think this is the right place for you.

[05:16] Rory: See? Really? You wouldn’t trust that person? I’m kind of like, what are we doing? I’m suspicious of that person.

[05:24] Matt: Yeah. I mean, we had a rich friend once, someone who we’re not really so close with anymore, who had never worked a day in their life, and I was talking to this person, they were expressing some guilt about that. They were like, should I get, like, a job at a restaurant? I was like, no, please don’t pretend.

[05:52] Rory: Well, that’s who you said. We used to just let the rich be rich about.

[05:58] Matt: Yeah, just do your thing. Work. Write a one woman show.

[06:08] Rory: Get into the arts. Get into the arts. Serve on a board.

[06:14] Matt: Yeah, serve on a board. This is what boards are. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Learn how to play the piano. Dab at your watercolors while listening to Mahler.

[06:33] Rory: Exactly. You get it. Living portraits, performances, the tableau vivon.

[06:43] Matt: Well, you remember that documentary about the children of the rich from, like, 20 years ago, and it had Ivanka Trump in it before, but I remember you.

[06:53] Rory: Talking about it and how she came off really well.

[06:55] Matt: She came off so well, she should have left it there.

[06:59] Rory: I think she thinks that every day.

[07:02] Matt: Yeah. So there was something in there where it was like, it used to be considered the obligation of the rich to be cultured, to learn how to play the piano and to dab at their watercolors, to sort of be the tibetan monks of high culture attaining enlightenment on behalf of the masses who don’t have the privilege of ascending that mountain. And now it’s like, yeah, they all want to work, and we don’t want to work. I think if I didn’t need to work for money, I would still do what I’m doing, but I would just do it so much less.

[07:49] Rory: Well, you would definitely still be a writer, which makes sense. It’s an art. But you wouldn’t write a daily newsletter. I think you’d take that off your plate.

[08:00] Matt: I would definitely take that off my.

[08:02] Rory: Plate, and I would still be in philanthropy. But on the other side.

[08:06] Matt: On the other side, I have a different cold open that I want to add to this cold open, because I think it’ll be a segue into our topic.

[08:17] Rory: Okay.

[08:19] Matt: Which is that I have seen two ufos this week.

[08:25] Rory: Well, I was on the phone for the second one.

[08:28] Matt: Yeah.

[08:29] Rory: Okay.

[08:31] Matt: So the first one sitting on my balcony, looking at the sky. It’s sunset, so the sky is sort of a pinkish hue. Three lights appear out of nowhere. I see them come into being. They wiggle around in a most peculiar manner. And then I’m with you. Off I go. Do you see that? He looks, and the second he’s looking, they disappear out. Gone. And remember, it’s light out, so it’s not like they just went dark. There was nothing there. The next time I’m on the phone with Rory sitting on my balcony, it’s night. One light appears. Boom. Splits into five. They wiggle around in a most peculiar manner. I’m screaming, yo up. Come back. Come back. They’re back. Then they disappear. Did he see them, the second ones?

[09:33] Rory: No, and he didn’t see the first ones either.

[09:36] Matt: He did.

[09:37] Rory: Oh, he saw the first ones, but not the second? Know, and then I said to you, well, you better get on Reddit and see what everyone’s saying. And you’re like, Reddit isn’t a thing. It’s real. Yeah, and it’s not really, but when I googled it, there was a UFO setting a couple of years ago. That sounds like what you. I saw the video that has been.

[09:57] Matt: Proven to be a hoax. I looked into that over Jerusalem.

[10:01] Rory: Like, a hoax in what sense?

[10:04] Matt: The video was analyzed, and they found it to have been tampered. Oh.

[10:11] Rory: Okay. So what did you see? I mean, it’s worth noting there’s a lot of things going on in the sky right now in that area.

[10:19] Matt: That’s true. But I see Warplanes and I see drones, and I’m not confused about what those are when I’m not calling everything I see in the sky a UFO right now, but it’s true. The sky is busy lately. Rockets, planes, helicopters, drones. We’re in a war over here. But this was very uncanny. I do think it may have been spiritual entities. We’re always so quick to label these things aliens. And I’m like, it could be an angel. It could be a spirit of some kind. It could know the goddess of time.

[11:08] Rory: I think unidentified Flying Object is a perfect name for it.

[11:14] Matt: Yeah, a manifestation of some kind. So, we’re talking about ghosts today, and because I saw these ufos, I’ve been thinking a lot about aliens and ghosts, these two categories of things that a lot of people have experiences of, but that we’re not sure if, as a society, if they’re real. And I was thinking about how we give so much more credence to ufos, and I was wondering why that is. Why do you think that is?

[11:53] Rory: Like, why more practical people believe in ufos than ghosts?

[12:01] Matt: Yes.

[12:02] Rory: I guess maybe because it’s like, UFO or alien falls into the category of scientifically possible.

[12:12] Matt: Yeah, it’s a stem. It’s stem. Ghosts are the humanities, and we don’t respect the humanities. Ghosts, it’s a Victorian Woman. Yeah, ghosts are women. It’s everything society shunts aside. It’s women.

[12:32] Rory: Women.

[12:32] Matt: It’s the humanities. It’s the home.

[12:39] Rory: It’s sensitive.

[12:41] Matt: It’s not military, or. There’s something very military about aliens. We think that the Pentagon is in on it.

[12:49] Rory: Yeah, it’s also like, you’ll be able to prove aliens once and for all at some point.

[12:59] Matt: But do you think so? I think I believe this, and a lot of people believe that the government has a lot of information about aliens that they’re not sharing with us. Do you think they also have information about ghosts?

[13:14] Rory: No, I think it’s for the same reason that certain people will give aliens credence but not ghost credence. The government studies aliens but not ghosts.

[13:27] Matt: Really? You don’t think every new president has to get briefed about the fact that the spirit of Johnson is still walking around?

[13:35] Rory: No, but I mean, I have heard about the Lincoln bedroom. Hillary Clinton not wanting to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom in the house.

[13:43] Matt: Really? Too spooky.

[13:47] Rory: Too spooky. I mean, that’s what everyone says, though, that he’s a big.

[13:55] Matt: Yeah, yeah. Well, we have that great ghost photo of him with his hands on shoulders.

[14:04] Rory: Yeah. You know, for this podcast, I was like, when did the idea of ghosts come about, and I can’t find my notes, but a long time ago, like forever ago, and I was thinking about why that is, and it’s kind of pretty much obvious because it’s like, you know, someone, you love someone, they live with you, and then their body’s there, but they’re not there. So the idea of this plurality must just be so observationally obvious.

[14:37] Matt: You’re right. The separation of body and know, which we’re told is, you know, Descartes caused us to think that body and spirit are two separate things. And it’s so stupid. And it ruined our culture forever, because now we’re forever divided within ourselves. But actually, it’s quite a natural thing to think because at a certain point, we encounter the body, as you’re saying, we encounter the body without the spirit. So it’s very natural to think, well, where is the spirit without the.

[15:21] Rory: Exactly. Exactly. And then the first poltergeist came around in Germany also hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And a poltergeist being defined as a ghost that causes.

[15:32] Matt: Hmm.

[15:34] Rory: So, yeah, ghosts have always kind of been with us.

[15:38] Matt: I read a great book of chinese ghost stories, ancient ghost stories. They’re very interesting. Different cultures have their different take on what causes a ghost to come into being. And in a lot of those stories, what happened was someone leaves for war or something. They promise their wife they’ll be back on this date. Exactly. They die. They can’t make it back on that date, but their spirit comes back. The woman lies with the ghost and wakes up the next morning, and there’s just, like, a gravestone.

[16:33] Rory: Oh, scary. It’s kind of like the others.

[16:37] Matt: Yeah, the others was a very chilling movie.

[16:43] Rory: So chilling. And her ghost husband comes back from World War I.

[16:52] Matt: But they were both ghosts.

[16:53] Rory: Everyone’s a ghost in that movie.

[16:58] Matt: But they didn’t hire. Do you know that they didn’t actually hire ghosts to play them?

[17:04] Rory: Well, that’s honestly a part of representation we don’t talk about in Hollywood, because ghosts don’t really have as strong of a voice. So can you play a ghost if you’re not a know, some people say, well, I will be a ghost, so it’s okay if I start now. But that’s not what I think.

[17:26] Matt: Yeah, that’s like saying you can be ageist because you will age. It does not work for me. And let’s talk about those offensive white.

[17:34] Rory: Sheet costumes just perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

[17:41] Matt: Yeah, I think that the ghost community was very upset about that. What was it called? The haunting.

[17:51] Rory: The haunting. The others.

[17:53] Matt: The others. Sorry. Yeah, you’re right. Well, she wears that wedding dress or something.

[18:04] Rory: Well, actually, the ghost community enjoys a wedding dress. A ghost in a wedding dress, that’s high art.

[18:18] Matt: Yeah, they like it because there are certain times in your life when you’re more likely to become a ghost.

[18:27] Rory: Absolutely. That’s a really good point.

[18:30] Matt: And you better hope you don’t die within the vicinity of your elaborate.

[18:40] Rory: Well. Well, Madame Lowry says, who is a psychic we follow on Instagram, whose name is actually Mallory. But Matt always thought her name was Madame Lowry or got confused. Anyway, Madame Lowry says that most people become spirits and they just wear the outfit they were wearing when they.

[19:02] Matt: Is.

[19:03] Rory: This is a thought that really disturbed me as a child, and so I always wanted to make sure I was dressed properly.

[19:14] Matt: Okay. So we listened to a few episodes of spooked recently. Spooked is an amazing podcast about true ghost encounters, and one of them involved someone wearing something that. A quite unflattering outfit that they died in. Do you remember what I’m talking about? It sounded like he was describing Elton John.

[19:37] Rory: No. Oh, my God. What? I don’t know this one.

[19:40] Matt: It was like these fashion glasses, and the guy was like. And then I asked around, and it turns out that’s what he was wearing when he kicked, so.

[19:52] Rory: Oh, my God. See, now this is concerning because a lot of people die in hospital gowns.

[20:01] Matt: I think you go back to what you were wearing when you went into the hospital.

[20:05] Rory: What then why not just wear whatever you want to wear?

[20:12] Matt: I don’t know, but I haven’t heard a lot of ghost stories about ghosts. Asses hanging out of a paper gown.

[20:19] Rory: See, my mom’s one time a psychic was connecting with her sister, and they were like, she’s wearing a blue gown. Like hospital gown.

[20:29] Matt: Yeah. Okay. Definitely. I’m sure there’s got to be a lot of haunted hospitals.

[20:39] Rory: Yeah.

[20:41] Matt: And do you know my mom works at a haunted hotel?

[20:48] Rory: Oh, really? That’s amazing.

[20:50] Matt: In Marietta, Ohio.

[20:52] Rory: Has she had an experience?

[20:54] Matt: No, but ghost hunters go there all the.

[20:57] Rory: Oh, really?

[20:59] Matt: Yeah.

[20:59] Rory: Oh, but she hasn’t had an experience.

[21:02] Matt: No, nor does she want to. If any ghosts are listening, leave her.

[21:07] Rory: Um, well, that’s like that spooked episode where they go to that haunted bed and breakfast near the lighthouse.

[21:13] Matt: I don’t remember that.

[21:14] Rory: Oh, it’s a new episode. It’s so good and spooky, and it’s exactly the kind of ghosts you want to see there. Nautical, 19th century women.

[21:27] Matt: Yeah.

[21:28] Rory: Sitting in the drawing room.

[21:30] Matt: Terrible. So what’s your theology of ghosts? How does it fit into your worldview?

[21:41] Rory: I think growing up Catholic and growing up in the household I grew up in, ghosts were just always with us. They’re a given. They are not a disputed fact by any means. Just my whole life I was always scared of seeing ghosts. There have been times I felt very haunted. Like in college, I felt very haunted. I don’t know if you remember. I think you do. This one time, I lived in this apartment, kind of off campus. It was still campus housing, but it was a little off campus. And we were hanging out late one night and I was so scared I was going to see a ghost that night. I just felt I was going to see a ghost. I was like, don’t leave me. The ghosts are coming for me. And you were like, think about it, Rory. Think about it from my perspective. Am I going to wake up tomorrow and you’re going to call me and say, I saw a ghost last night. That’s not going to happen to me.

[22:38] Matt: Yeah, that was good advice. That was good perspective. It was for me.

[22:43] Rory: But that whole year, I felt really haunted. And I thought it was the apartment. And then I moved rooms and the haunting stayed with me. And there was this one time when I was on the phone and my door was closed and all of a sudden I watched with my very own eyes the lock turn and lock me in.

[23:04] Matt: Really?

[23:05] Rory: Yes.

[23:07] Matt: What?

[23:08] Rory: Yes.

[23:09] Matt: You saw it with thine own eyes?

[23:12] Rory: Own eyes. It went flip. And it was like one of those. Yeah, it was crazy.

[23:17] Matt: What did you do, start screaming?

[23:19] Rory: Yeah, I freaked out. And the person I was on the phone with was like, oh, it’s fine. It’s just like the lock was half already in and you missaw it. And I just decided to believe that even though that’s not what happened.

[23:38] Matt: Oh, brother, that was a hot year.

[23:41] Rory: Why was there a ghost attached to me that year? What was happening?

[23:46] Matt: I don’t know. Where were you living when I moved.

[23:53] Rory: Back to the new dorms room?

[23:58] Matt: I had the new dorms. Never felt haunted to me. I can imagine a ghost in Hill house.

[24:04] Rory: Well, that’s where it was before, Hill house that same year. And then I moved. But that’s why I was like, the ghost is attached to me.

[24:13] Matt: Yeah. Maybe it was you.

[24:17] Rory: No.

[24:19] Matt: Like a side of yourself, your sexuality. It was a little black swan moment.

[24:33] Rory: Yeah. So true. And then all of a sudden, my skin starts melting.

[24:38] Matt: Yeah.

[24:40] Rory: So, yes, I believe in ghosts. I believe that they are the spirits or energies of departed people.

[24:49] Matt: Do you think they’re conscious?

[24:52] Rory: Well, my biggest fear is that you die and you don’t know what’s going on. You know, that that’s truly my being dead and there being so much confusion. And why, no matter how depressed I ever got, could never fathom the idea of taking my own life. Because what if confusion is waiting for me on the other side?

[25:11] Matt: Yeah. Well, I don’t know if anyone listening has seen 2001 a Space odyssey, but the final half hour of that movie is basically just creepy looking screen savers. Like, undulating colored lines with horrifying, stark Philip glass music playing. And that’s what I fear happens after you die. Just an eternity of philip glass music and vague but horrifying visuals.

[25:44] Rory: Shapes in a void.

[25:46] Matt: Shapes. And avoid having no body. Just Koyana Scottzi music and permutating shapes. Please know.

[25:57] Rory: Why is that so scary? It is, though. It’s terrifying.

[26:01] Matt: It’s horrifying because narrative is comfort. So even being in hell, you’re like, okay, there’s a narrative structure to this. I was wicked. Now I’m being punished. There’s this devil who’s punishing me. He’s a clear character. There’s fire. It’s a world of concepts, and concepts are comforting, even if it’s eternal toil, which is awful. Shapes in a void and having no body and just hearing Philip glass music.

[26:35] Rory: Well, I had that dream once where I was with a bunch of shapes in a void on a giant triangle in a black sky.

[26:44] Matt: Wasn’t that someone else we went to school with?

[26:47] Rory: No, this happened years later, and you told me about this after the fact.

[26:52] Matt: Okay.

[26:52] Rory: Real dream I had. So it was like a giant triangle in a black sky. I won’t get too into it, but there are these unbodied beings speaking to me and telling me how they get through this triangle shape. And then at one point, I had to step out to the void, and I was really scared, and they were like, no, you have to. You have to. And then I stepped out from the triangle into the void, and I lost my body, and I was disembodied.

[27:18] Matt: Oh, my God.

[27:19] Rory: And it was the scariest dream I ever had. I woke up the next day, and I just cried all day because I was so scared by this dream.

[27:28] Matt: When was that?

[27:29] Rory: This was the year 2014.

[27:35] Matt: Oh, brother. B. Well, yeah, there are lots of terrible things that could happen after we die. Someone told me a ghost story once about a little girl walking around a dining room table on an endless. Yeah, that’s. Know the person who owned the house. Lots of people see her.

[28:04] Rory: Oh, no. Poor Samantha.

[28:08] Matt: Now, if Samantha is just a video, okay, just an image hologram, a sort of spiritual hologram, that’s okay. But if there’s a person in there, a consciousness trapped in one moment, that’s not okay. And that’s the thing. That’s why this question of if ghosts are real could have some importance to it, because then we need spiritual dispatch teams running out to these locations, helping these souls cross over.

[28:44] Rory: Well, Madame Lowry talks about this. She does not like to see souls that are stuck in that limbo space because she says they’re so draining and they just want to feed on your energy. And she said she was at Versailles and she saw a servant in the king’s.

[29:02] Matt: Yeah, I saw. I saw that. She filmed it. We couldn’t see it, obviously, but she’s like, right here. Circles it.

[29:12] Rory: The servant was following her around, and she just turned around and said, you’re not supposed to be here. And he seemed confused.

[29:24] Matt: You hated that, didn’t you?

[29:26] Rory: I hate it because it’s like, obviously he knows something’s wrong. He’s, like, sitting in this king’s room. He sees this windswept psychic, feels compelled to follow her. She’s dressed very strangely.

[29:38] Matt: Yeah.

[29:39] Rory: And yet he’s like, why am I. What’s going on? It must feel like he’s in a terrible dream.

[29:47] Matt: That’s what I was about to say. It must be like a dream. It can’t be completely lucid because I’m right now in my waking state. If there were a bunch of people in my apartment dressed in the clothes that they wear in 2086, looking like.

[30:06] Rory: District one, looking like district one Hunger games people.

[30:10] Matt: Yeah, a bunch of district one Hunger games people walking around in my kitchen. I’m, like, waking me. I’d be like, what is going on? But dream me might just be sort of puzzled, distressed, but going with it. Because in dreams, even when you’re puzzled, even when you’re distressed, you go with it.

[30:33] Rory: You really accept the reality. Even if you’re wondering, you’re like, it must be something I’m not understanding.

[30:40] Matt: Yeah. And maybe you’re like, get out of my house. Get out of my house. And you’re, like, pushing them, and that’s causing their haunting.

[30:49] Rory: Yeah.

[30:50] Matt: But for you, it just feels like one weird moment where you’re like, oh, no, these district one people, right? I think one of them is my sister. So I’m going to try and play toys with her. And then you’re, like, terrifying some little girl.

[31:10] Rory: Yeah. My sister. Now, I grew up in a house where, first of all, my house that I grew up in was from, like, I think 1880s. So very old house, used to be a farmhouse. We can just assume many people died there. But I know one person died there for sure because the people we bought the house from, it was a couple, they didn’t have kids. And he died. He choked on a chicken bone while she was out walking the dog.

[31:43] Matt: But.

[31:43] Rory: I never felt him. So I think it is possible.

[31:49] Matt: To pass on.

[31:50] Rory: To pass on.

[31:52] Matt: Sure. Absolutely. I definitely believe it’s possible to pass on because I also believe in reincarnation.

[32:03] Rory: Okay.

[32:06] Matt: I think there are a lot of different paths you can take when you kick it, depending on your spiritual level, depending on your intention, depending on how you die.

[32:18] Rory: Well, that is a theory that many spiritual people think, and the only problem I have with that. But maybe let’s work this out. When you reincarnate, there seems to be the beliefs that you get to kind of choose what life you have, where.

[32:40] Matt: You come back as Madame Lowry thinks.

[32:44] Rory: That, but not just her. Other people think that. I feel like that’s a little offensive to people who have terrible lives.

[32:52] Matt: You chose, like, okay, think about you. Let’s imagine you’re adopting a dog. Okay? And you decide that you want to adopt an older or disabled dog. I’ve seen a lot of commercials lately. Older and disabled dogs wait years to find a good home. Now, obviously it’s easier to have a younger, healthier dog, but some people might feel called to take an older or disabled dog because they think that they can provide for it.

[33:39] Rory: Oh, so you think choosing a more difficult life is an act of altruism, of the soul. Someone’s got to do it.

[33:47] Matt: I’ll take the l. No, not even, I’ll take the l. They might feel called to it. It might be a sort of calling or a certain hard life could be really rich in a particular way.

[34:05] Rory: Oh, I like that idea.

[34:11] Matt: A lot of people that, I don’t know if this is going to venture into saying something problematic. I’m going to say it anyways. A lot of people lately have been quoting to me this woman, Eti Hillsome, who died in a concentration camp. And she kept a diary like Anne Frank. And she was a real spiritual know, she was a real enlightened woman. And her book is all about forgiveness and looking inward and acceptance. It’s really powerful. So a lot of people have been reading it lately. She’s very well quoted in jewish circles. So her life obviously was not a desirable life, she faced one of the worst historical calamities of all time. But there’s also an undeniable richness to her experience of life that is plain to see when you read her work. So that type of life is not for everyone. But could there be a soul that says, I’ll take it?

[35:27] Rory: Okay. But all the souls that died in the Holocaust, they were all trying to be like her, and they just failed. That’s why they chose that life. They wanted to be like that.

[35:40] Matt: That’s a great counterpoint. And now my question is, do you see the whole life?

[35:54] Rory: I don’t know. Maybe it’s just.

[35:56] Matt: You just see the parents. Do you get, like, a little case file with a few scant details?

[36:03] Rory: Well, I think if you do get a case file with just a few scant details, all those people must have been extra pissed on, like, a spiritual level. Their souls.

[36:16] Matt: Yeah. I don’t know. I also have trouble. I was playing a little devil’s advocate there, because I also have trouble with the we choose the life thing also.

[36:30] Rory: It’s like, what is a choice?

[36:32] Matt: What is a choice? And also, I don’t know. Are souls distinctive from one another? I kind of thought souls were all the same.

[36:45] Rory: I think it’s like, both. Like a complex quilt made up of patches that are sewed together.

[36:54] Matt: Yeah. I feel like the idea you become a ghost, if you are retaining all of that particularity, hopefully you die and you’re like, okay, I’m a spirit again. I’m not this victorian woman.

[37:12] Rory: Right.

[37:13] Matt: And a ghost is someone who can’t quite let go of their story.

[37:18] Rory: The ego.

[37:19] Matt: The ego. The story. The narrative. The resentments.

[37:26] Rory: Yeah. And I think everyone probably has a little transitionary period, which is what scares me. I’m like, God damn it, how long is it going to take me to rude? Be like, no, you’re not redheaded. No.

[37:43] Matt: Yeah. Do you think we’re going to still be wanting to lose five pounds 600 years from now as we walk around, oh, I must be burning a lot of calories walking around this dining room table for the past 600 years.

[38:00] Rory: Still trying to get off our phones, still trying to finish war in peace.

[38:05] Matt: Yeah. All the samsara, please let there be an end to the loops. The loops. And life is full of so many loops. And that’s what’s literally disturbing about the girl walking around the table. She’s in a literal loop, and there’s something very familiar about that image because we also get into loops in this life, on this side of the veil.

[38:37] Rory: Yeah. How many people do you think are aware of their loops and want to end their loops? What percentage of the american population?

[38:51] Matt: Let’s just say, well, I think I’ve talked to you about this before. I think that being aware of your loop and wanting to end your loop is often a part of a loop.

[39:01] Rory: Oh, 100%.

[39:04] Matt: That’s you. Yeah, I definitely have loops where I’m like. And that’s it for that? Yeah, I just went through something like that. I’m done with this. And then, yeah, I was like, I’m going to end this loop. And I was like, I’m going to download this self help book that will help me end this loop. And then what do I see? It’s already there on my phone from the last time I tried to end this loop. The same book?

[39:41] Rory: No. See, that’s an amazing story. You know who would love that? Eckhart toll. He’d laugh at that. That’s why.

[39:49] Matt: Laugh.

[39:50] Rory: That’s why his favorite movie is Groundhog Day.

[39:53] Matt: Really?

[39:54] Rory: Yeah.

[39:55] Matt: Ours, too.

[39:57] Rory: It’s a great movie. A lot of depth.

[40:00] Matt: Absolutely.

[40:02] Rory: My loops are so embarrassing, too.

[40:05] Matt: And I bring them to lovely lady loops.

[40:08] Rory: My lovely lady loops. And I bring them to your feet like a woman worshipping the Madonna. Some roses at your feet. Listen to my loops. I say, yeah.

[40:19] Matt: And then you go, well, if ending my loop is part of my loop, how do I end it? Do I end it by not ending it?

[40:31] Rory: Isn’t acceptance or something. The loop. Here it is enjoying it again.

[40:38] Matt: Yeah.

[40:39] Rory: You can’t fight the loop, but you can disengage with the loop, though.

[40:45] Matt: You can disengage, but you have to be careful not to do it in a loop like way. It’s very subtle. It’s very subtle. You have to disengage with it by letting it just brush past you rather than engaging with it. Okay. This is what people don’t realize about their patterns. And by people, I mean myself. And this is wisdom from that self help book that I’ve downloaded twice. And just from OCD, CBT act therapy. This is my wheelhouse. This is what I turn. To help. To engage with the loop is to participate with it. So you can engage with it by doing the thing, or you can engage with it by trying to forcefully break the habit, but you’re still dancing with that demon or fighting with that demon. And both of those from the demon’s perspective are the same demons. Like, I’ve got you, we’re dancing, we’re fighting. Who cares? You’re here with me.

[41:56] Rory: Exactly. So the disengagement is a very unforced disengagement.

[42:06] Matt: Yes.

[42:07] Rory: You have to be like water.

[42:10] Matt: You must. And that’s the Tao right there.

[42:14] Rory: Right there.

[42:15] Matt: Be yielding the feminine principle, the yin energy. Yeah, you need the yin energy. So how would I apply that to my digital minimalism? Like, my constant effort to be on screens less, which always yields a period of fasting and then a period of binge.

[42:42] Rory: I don’t know, but that’s what I was thinking of when I was talking about your loop, specifically, that.

[42:48] Matt: Yeah, it’s a huge loop of mine.

[42:51] Rory: I don’t know. We’ll have to brainstorm. Maybe it’s like trying to. I mean, people do quit things. People quit smoking. You quit smoking. How’d you quit smoking?

[43:04] Matt: Yes. The thing about quitting smoking is that you also have to kind of quit smoking without quitting smoking.

[43:12] Rory: Right.

[43:15] Matt: The more you see it. And this is like the Alan Carr method. The Alan Carr method, which is very powerful, is like, no, the second you put out your, like, don’t think of it as quitting smoking. Just stop smoking. Don’t quit. Just stop. Yeah, just put out the cigarette and don’t light another one.

[43:38] Rory: So Sam quit smoking by saying to himself, I’ll have a cigarette in 5 minutes, and then never having that.

[43:46] Matt: Can. I can see that as being some version of what we’re talking about and OCD thoughts. You can kind of deal with that in that same way. I’ll think about that in an hour. I’m not going to engage with that right now. Right now I’m with friends.

[44:02] Rory: Right.

[44:03] Matt: When you have OCD, you literally have to say absurd sentences like that to yourself. You have to be like, I’m not going to engage with that right now. I’m with my friends right now. But feel free to bring that to me later and we can revisit it then.

[44:18] Rory: And then 30 seconds later, you have to say it again.

[44:21] Matt: Yeah.

[44:25] Rory: But one thing is true in life is that it’s always easier to quit than to keep something in your life in moderation. That’s the problem with the phone.

[44:33] Matt: Yes, that’s the problem with the phone. That’s the problem with eating things you have to do. There’s no small amount of smoke that I require to get through a day, so I was able to just quit and move past it.

[44:53] Rory: So I don’t know. We’re still climbing that mountain, but I hope that there’s relief for us. I hope there’s no phones in death.

[45:01] Matt: Yeah, I hope so too.

[45:04] Rory: So have you had any ghosty experiences? What is your philosophy on ghost? Did you grow up in a ghost family?

[45:11] Matt: No, we did not grow up in a ghost family, though. My mother, I believe, has a touch of the gift, a touch of the second sight. She’s had some experiences, some prophetic dreams, things of that know. We used to have a lake house in New Hampshire that was very haunted feeling.

[45:34] Rory: Yes.

[45:35] Matt: And I’m sure this is as close to a ghost story as I have. We had guests staying there, so I was moved to this kind of creepy guest room. And because it was just a guest room, there was literally nothing in it. Just a bed and a rug with concentric circles. And we were, like, going out for a hike, and I couldn’t find my shoes anywhere. And I was looking all over for them. I was looking under the bed, whatever, and they were just gone. So eventually my family was like, just come without your shoes. You’ll be fine. So we left. We went for the hike, came back over here. There’s just, like, a walk on this nature trail.

[46:23] Rory: You went barefoot or just with different shoes?

[46:27] Matt: I don’t remember, but I gave up on those shoes.

[46:30] Rory: Okay.

[46:31] Matt: And when I came back, there were the shoes in the center of the concentric circle rug, very bizarrely placed.

[46:41] Rory: Yeah, that’s really weird.

[46:43] Matt: And there were some other incidents.

[46:47] Rory: Was there not a story about that ghost that had to do with an earring?

[46:51] Matt: But we rented out the house to a woman. She went out to dinner with friends, lost an earring at dinner. Then, according to the tale, as it’s always told, everyone’s looking on their hands and knees at the restaurant for this earring. They can’t find it. Get home. There it is. In the jewelry box, in the earring box. She goes, oh, silly me. I must have only put in one earring this night. Then the photos from the evening get developed. Two earrings.

[47:26] Rory: This ghost is actually quite helpful.

[47:29] Matt: It’s a very helpful ghost. It raises a lot of questions, though. The ghost carried the earring home from the restaurant.

[47:35] Rory: Logistics, baby. The ghost went to the restaurant. The ghost was like, I’m in the mood for some chicken picata. The ghost was on the ground looking for the earring with everyone. Ghost found it, got in the car with them, drove back, ran into the house before anyone could get there.

[47:56] Matt: Yeah, obviously, no ghost stories make sense, but this one seems to make a little less sense. It makes we don’t think of the ghost leaving the house like that, finding my shoes and putting them in the rug, maybe hiding them from me to begin with.

[48:13] Rory: Yeah. Like a childlike ghost. Yeah, fun ghost. Yeah, that is the thing. But the thing about this ghost story is that it mixes a little bit of evidence in it. With the earring.

[48:29] Matt: Yeah. Being in touch with her, do you think I could find her?

[48:35] Rory: The ghost or the woman with the earring?

[48:37] Matt: The woman.

[48:39] Rory: Well, when you go find her, they’re going to be like, she’s been dead for 40 years.

[48:45] Matt: No, I guess that doesn’t make sense. I’m not older than 41.

[48:51] Rory: Of the most real ghost experiences I’ve ever had was that I swear I felt my dead cat Sophia rub up against my leg.

[49:01] Matt: Wait, what about that ghost woman you saw?

[49:04] Rory: Oh, yes, I did see a ghost once also. I can tell that story.

[49:09] Matt: Tell both of those stories for first the.

[49:13] Rory: The Sophia one, my dead cat was just that I was at the kitchen chopping, and I swear I felt her rub up against me a couple weeks or maybe a couple months after she died. But the time I saw a ghost was when I was staying at my mom’s place. I think it was in college, over, like, a summer break. And I woke up at, like, 06:00 a.m. And I went to use the bathroom, and I came back to bed to just go back to sleep, and I laid down, and all of a sudden, the door started opening. And so I thought it was my mom. And I saw it out of the corner, my eye, the door opening. I started talking to her, and then she didn’t respond, so I turned, and it was a woman, not my mom. And so I was like, oh, there’s, like, a person in our house. Why is there a person here? So I’m running through all the ways, kind of giving.

[50:24] Matt: You’re the ghost futuristic garb.

[50:32] Rory: No, she was, like, looking around the room, not looking at me at all. So I was know I’m from the midwest. So I was like, oh, excuse me. Pardon me. Should you be here? And this person is not acknowledging me in any way. And I was, like, running through. I was like, okay, it’s either like a robber, a thief, or it’s like, my mom’s friend. And she didn’t tell me that she had a friend staying over. But my mom doesn’t have friends. I don’t know. And she’s never had a sleepover.

[51:11] Matt: Yeah.

[51:12] Rory: So then I was like, are you.

[51:14] Matt: It was evening. It was night.

[51:15] Rory: No, it was like, 06:00 a.m..

[51:17] Matt: Okay.

[51:18] Rory: I was like, do you know my mom? And then she was just, like, not acknowledging me, looking around the room. And then finally I was like, oh, are you a ghost? And then she just disappeared. And then I was like, what the fuck? And I got up and I went into my mom’s room, and I was like, mom, I think I just saw a ghost. And she was like, yes, you did, honey. Yes, you did. Just come back and sleep in my bed.

[51:47] Matt: Wait, that’s crazy. Much crazier than your cat brushing up against your leg?

[51:53] Rory: Well, yeah, but that felt very real, too.

[51:56] Matt: Sure, but it doesn’t translate as well. That’s insane. Okay, there’s something else about a woman with cancer at your school.

[52:08] Rory: Oh, that was the school counselor at the school I worked at after college. She used to be a hospice nurse. Or not hospice, like a counselor in a know. And she told this very spooky ghost story about how there was a patient of hers named Clara who would always wear these very pretty scarves on her head. She had cancer, and she eventually passed away during surgery. And Julie, the woman’s name, the counselor was know. I was really upset by this, so it was really hard for me to go to that floor anymore. But there was a patient there, and they were like, she really needs someone to talk to before the surgery that she’s about to have. And she was staying in the same room as this woman who died, Clara, and had the same cancer. And Julie said that this woman was really anxious, very worried about the surgery, so she had to go do something else. But she was like, well, I’ll come back in an hour and we can talk more about this. So when she came back, the woman who was going into surgery was, like, very calm. And Julie was, oh, like, you seem so much better. What happened? She was like, oh, I feel so much better. A nurse came in and she said that she had the same cancer as me and that the surgery is going to be fine. And Julie was like, well, who was this nurse? And she was like, oh, her name was Clara. And she was wearing, like, a scarf.

[53:49] Matt: Oh, lordy. Also, like, wouldn’t be so comforting for that patient. Oh, I had the same thing. And it was fine, except that I died. That I died. Oh, yeah, I had that, too. Don’t worry. You’ll just die. And then we can both do rounds in this hospital for eternity.

[54:19] Rory: Yeah, I love a good ghost story. Why do we love ghosts?

[54:23] Matt: I love to feel the wonder. I like believing that the universe is more than just what we think it is. I like to be spooked.

[54:39] Rory: Oh, yeah? Why do we like to be spooked?

[54:43] Matt: Well, in my act therapy book, the guy said, we love to classify emotions into good emotions, bad emotions, happy, good, sad, bad, scared, bad, excited, good. And he’s like, no, there’s not one emotion that people don’t pay to produce. Sorrow. We love going to see sad movies, tear jerkers. Here. We love to be afraid. Now, obviously, there can be really bad experiences of those feelings, too, when we’re not actually safe. But there’s something about intense feeling of any kind when you’re safe, when you know you’re safe, that’s really pleasurable or really satisfying or really makes you feel alive.

[55:50] Rory: Yeah, it’s always those, when I’m in a fragile emotional state, I can’t participate in those manufactured negative emotion experiences like watching scary movies or mysteries or anything like that. Because I don’t feel safe.

[56:06] Matt: Yes. So you can’t play with it. You can’t play with it in those moments. Pain. Also, like people who do BDsm, it’s like you have to know you’re safe before you play those games. I remember I read this fascinating article in the New York Times about 700 years ago about how humans are the only animals that enjoy spicy food because every other animal reads it as poison. And we get to play this sick game of being poisoned while knowing that we’re safe. Getting the rush of this dangerous food, but knowing that we’re going to be okay.

[56:50] Rory: Yeah. And it’s interesting with spicy food, like roller coasters or liking scary movies, it’s like a badge of honor. If you endure it, if you like.

[57:00] Matt: Yeah.

[57:01] Rory: I’m like, why do you want to feel pain when you eat?

[57:07] Matt: I don’t know, but I do you.

[57:10] Rory: Like really spicy food?

[57:12] Matt: Yeah. I used to have an addiction to that really spicy, like, korean red pepper paste. I used to put it on everything.

[57:22] Rory: Why?

[57:23] Matt: I kind of became addicted to it. I had to cut it out of my life entirely.

[57:28] Rory: Not interested.

[57:31] Matt: You don’t like any level of spice?

[57:33] Rory: I like a comfortable level of spice that gives you a little.

[57:37] Matt: But also I want to sweat. I want to feel alive, baby.

[57:42] Rory: Well, see, that’s for me. The problem is I have a really strong physical reaction to it that I find very unpleasant. Like, my ears start seeping water and become very itchy when I eat spicy food. So if I’m not near a qtip, count me out.

[57:59] Matt: They should have qtips at the table.

[58:01] Rory: Yeah. Does that happen to you at all?

[58:04] Matt: I sweat profusely, but not my ears. Getting itchy? No.

[58:09] Rory: Kind of allergic to spice.

[58:12] Matt: Well, aren’t we all?

[58:15] Rory: Well, yeah. I asked my ent this once, hey, is this normal? And he was like, oh, it’s just that everything in your head is kind of connected. And brain is like, I need to send water to the mouth, but it gets confused and also sends it to your ears.

[58:32] Matt: Just send it everywhere. Just send water. Water.

[58:38] Rory: Like, some people get a runny nose when they’re eating spicy food.

[58:41] Matt: Oh, I do get that.

[58:43] Rory: Yeah, it’s pretty funny.

[58:46] Matt: And, yeah, I guess it’s all connected. You also get a runny nose when you cry.

[58:51] Rory: Oh, yeah.

[58:53] Matt: But how good does it feel to cry?

[58:56] Rory: It feels great. And there are people who can’t cry. Like, aren’t you someone who has a hard time crying? Or.

[59:00] Matt: No, I was just talking to yoav about this, where I’m always wishing I could cry, but the second I start to cry, I feel ashamed and suppress it.

[59:14] Rory: But you’re able to suppress it.

[59:18] Matt: With difficulty.

[59:25] Rory: I need to get to a private place instantly because are coming. They will not stop. There is no suppression.

[59:36] Matt: Maybe you don’t know this because it might be easier for you to cry, but sometimes when I feel like I need to cry, I have to work myself up. So I’ll be like. I’ll feel like the single tear in the eye. I’m getting misty. And then I’ll go, yeah. I’ll be like. I’ll basically keen myself. And sometimes like, okay, all right. This is what always makes me cry. At the end of the day, you’re going along, things are hard. It’s all building up. And then you tell someone, I’m having a hard time.

[01:00:24] Rory: No.

[01:00:27] Matt: I’m having a hard time. It always gets me. I’m like. Because I think it’s a surge of self pity or self. We can label that as self sympathy, maybe.

[01:00:39] Rory: I don’t know. Saying it out loud makes it all click together, almost.

[01:00:44] Matt: Yeah, girl, I’ve had some moments with this in the past few weeks, let me tell you.

[01:00:54] Rory: Yeah. You don’t say, I cry when someone is like, are you doing okay? And then I’m like, yeah. And they’re like, are you sure I want to cry right now? I literally want to cry. Because I’m like, no, I’m not sure.

[01:01:18] Matt: There should be cry workshops. There should be cry therapy. There should be.

[01:01:23] Rory: Definitely is cry therapy. It’s a lot going taught by the same people who teach laugh yoga.

[01:01:28] Matt: Yeah. Especially, like, men need to learn how to cry. I have a pet theory based on nothing, that this is why men live less long than women.

[01:01:42] Rory: Because we. There are some women who can’t cry, though. I feel really bad for people who can’t cry. Like, I cry so much.

[01:01:52] Matt: I haven’t cried really hard since Mao died. My cat. When a cat can, the floodgates open.

[01:02:01] Rory: I cry once a month at least.

[01:02:04] Matt: It’s amazing. Because of your feminine moon cycle? Yeah, basically women connected to the moon.

[01:02:17] Rory: And it dries my skin out. That’s the worst part.

[01:02:19] Matt: Men connected to nothing.

[01:02:21] Rory: You really aren’t. You’re just shapes in a void, aren’t you?

[01:02:25] Matt: Yeah. We don’t have a cool cosmic corollary like that.

[01:02:33] Rory: No, you only have those masculine circles. Circle drum circles.

[01:02:42] Matt: Yeah, the mythical men’s movement. They learn how to cry.

[01:02:50] Rory: But you were a woman in a previous life, which is why you’re gay now.

[01:02:55] Matt: Yeah. A psychic told me that she was a little contradictory. She told me that what makes someone gay is being one sex. Lots of times in a row, life after life after life, and then suddenly you switch. But then she told me about my past lives, and they were like all men. Mexican tobacco farmer, courtier in the french court of. Whatever, mexican tobacco farmer. She told me that was my happiest.

[01:03:34] Rory: You. Do you feel drawn to Mexico in any way? I’ve never heard you mention it.

[01:03:38] Matt: No, I don’t really feel very drawn to Mexico. She said the spirits are showing me a sombrero. That doesn’t mean you actually wore. Just the spirits know that I know that sombrero means Mexico.

[01:03:53] Rory: Okay. They have their own symbolic language.

[01:03:56] Matt: I love when psychics give you an insight into the process.

[01:04:01] Rory: Oh, yeah. A little workshop for free. Not for free. As a bonus.

[01:04:06] Matt: Yeah. Like, oh, so you’re not just seeing what was. The spirits are working with your ignorance.

[01:04:15] Rory: Yeah. She never told me about my past lives. I always got the vibe from that psychic that she thought I was new.

[01:04:23] Matt: Really?

[01:04:24] Rory: Yeah. And I’m like, oh, no, I’m an old soul.

[01:04:26] Matt: Yeah. You were married to Lincoln?

[01:04:28] Rory: Yeah.

[01:04:28] Matt: Should we tell the audience about that?

[01:04:32] Rory: That you and I have a strong working theory that I was married Todd Lincoln in a previous life.

[01:04:38] Matt: This was one of, honestly, the best nights of my. Really. I really mean, so I’ve never laughed so hard, first of all, ever. The hardest laughter I ever laughed and the most shocking discoveries I’ve ever made. We were on the know. We were long distance friends then. Like we are was like. I was like, Rory, you talk about Mary Todd Lincoln a lot. Maybe you were her in a past life. You both have very round heads.

[01:05:14] Rory: Well, that’s my biggest fear. It has been for a while that I’m going to age like Mary Tod Lincoln. She had a beautiful round head that just started to wrinkle into itself.

[01:05:23] Matt: Exactly. Well, they didn’t have the skincare technologies that we have now. So I decided to put together a little test to test if Rory was Mary Tod Lincoln. I said, which one of these is your house? Which one of these was your wedding dress? Which one of, correct answer, correct answer, correct answer.

[01:05:47] Rory: My stepmother. It was like that.

[01:05:50] Matt: Yeah, it was shocking. And then I show her one. I say, which one of these is your mother? And she picks. And I go, no, wrong. Sorry. And we got kind of bummed. Okay, she got one wrong. But then 5 minutes later, you go, let’s revisit that. Because the woman you’re saying was my mother. I’m really not feeling mother from her. I’m feeling like I do not like her. And then I double checked, and I had picked the wrong picture. It was the woman I had told Rory was Mary Tod’s mother was actually her stepmother, who she hated.

[01:06:29] Rory: Wait, actually, though, you’re forgetting the origins of this. Yes. I always talked about Mary Todd Lincoln, but part of it was before we even started talking about this, I said I had a very strange dream about turtle soup.

[01:06:41] Matt: Oh, yeah.

[01:06:42] Rory: And then we found out that the night Abraham Lincoln was murdered, they had eaten turtle soup. Turtle soup.

[01:06:54] Matt: But why did we check that? I think I was already working up a theory.

[01:07:01] Rory: I forget how the connection was made. But then it all happened at once.

[01:07:06] Matt: It all happened at once. So we were shocked by all the right answers. We were cracking up. It was so I. I believe that this may indeed be the truth about Rory, about the woman I’m speaking to right now.

[01:07:25] Rory: And this was also around the time when we were both watching a lot of Outlander. So we had a little joke called Todd Lander. It’s still getting you.

[01:07:38] Matt: Wait, should we post the Todlander video?

[01:07:42] Rory: There’s, like, about three people in the world who would think it was funny because they’re very familiar with the outlander opening.

[01:07:52] Matt: A. We were so mystified by Rory being Mary Todd Lincoln that we put together a video that’s scenes of Mary Todd Lincoln’s life set to the Outlander music. And we’re going to post it, and you’re going to love it.

[01:08:14] Rory: You all, if you don’t watch Outlander. Get thee to a Netflix.

[01:08:20] Matt: Get thee to a Netflix and media mente.

[01:08:25] Rory: Yeah, so I maybe was Mary Tod Lincoln in her previous life? I think I. First wife energy. First wife. Like, the first. Is that what they’re called?

[01:08:40] Matt: First lady.

[01:08:41] Rory: First lady energy. There we go.

[01:08:43] Matt: First wives club energy.

[01:08:45] Rory: Yeah, I also have that, but anyway.

[01:08:49] Matt: Anywho, well, in conclusion. In conclusion, I’m ready to see one.

[01:08:58] Rory: No, because you always told me you weren’t. You didn’t want to.

[01:09:01] Matt: I’m ready.

[01:09:02] Rory: You better be careful what you wish after this UFO.

[01:09:05] Matt: I’m hungry for more.

[01:09:07] Rory: I wonder if you’ll be like me and think it’s a person for 20 seconds before you realize it’s a ghost.

[01:09:13] Matt: Yeah, probably. May there’s people in my life who are ghosts and I don’t even know, like that kid in the six hunts. I’m, like, not noticing that no one addresses them directly. What about you?

[01:09:40] Rory: Oh, yeah. Do I want more ghosts? I don’t need more, no.

[01:09:50] Matt: Well, there you have it. If any ghosts are listening, pay me a gentle visit.

[01:09:56] Rory: Yeah.

[01:09:57] Matt: Do not be aggressive. If you are going to be aggressive, do not come and leave Rory alone.

[01:10:05] Rory: Well, happy Halloween, everyone.

[01:10:08] Matt: Happy Halloween.

[01:10:10] Rory: I’ll talk to you later, Matt.

[01:10:12] Matt: Talk to you later. Close.