Manifesting

[00:11] Rory: My name is Rory O’Toole.

[00:12] Matt: And my name is Matt Schultz.

[00:15] Rory: And this is how to be the.

[00:17] Matt: Podcast where we discuss ancient wisdom, modern hacks, paperback self help books, and pithy.

[00:24] Rory: Platitudes in the hopes of figuring out the best way to live this one precious and wild life.

[00:31] Matt: Do you believe in the power of positive thinking? What about the power of a positive attitude? If so, join us as we discuss manifesting.

[01:07] Rory: Hey, Mateo.

[01:08] Matt: Hey, roar.

[01:09] Rory: You’re a vision in orange.

[01:11] Matt: This day, it’s more of a salmon.

[01:14] Rory: Oh, it comes as orange. It’s reading orange. I’m wearing pink.

[01:17] Matt: Reading orange. Yeah, it looks very orange on the screen. Mine, mine.

[01:22] Rory: Yeah.

[01:25] Matt: New t shirts, I think. I have so many new t shirts, and they’re all a string.

[01:33] Rory: Oh, they’re all golden, boy.

[01:36] Matt: Yeah. So this t shirt is a very specific J. Crew t shirt that I previously had just two of. Now I have six of them.

[01:52] Rory: Did you buy them from the store, or did you just have them shipped to your brother’s house because you’re in Chicago right now?

[01:58] Matt: I had them shipped to my brother’s house.

[02:00] Rory: Oh, wow.

[02:02] Matt: So now good worth of Monday, Tuesday.

[02:08] Rory: Wednesday, two on the Sabbath?

[02:11] Matt: No, because I also have those other teas, the true classic teas coming in today, and I have three of those. True classic is a brand that has been really working hard on advertising to me over the past year on instagram that say that they make your dad bod look great. They cut your arms, they hike up your pecs, and they got a little extra room around the middle.

[02:40] Rory: Does it have, like, an airbrushed six pack ab on it?

[02:48] Matt: Yeah, it has some padding. No, I think it’s more about just creating the illusion through different methods.

[03:00] Rory: It’s not like when George Michael wore that muscle suit.

[03:04] Matt: That’s exactly what I was thinking of. That’s exactly what I was just thinking of. George Michael and that muscle suit. That was so funny.

[03:12] Rory: Well, the other day I was advertised. Oh, I sent it to you. Plus size pilates, which for some reason is different than regular pilates.

[03:23] Matt: Yeah, it’s like in 30 rock, the perfume for plus sized women. Enormay. Can’t they wear regular perfume?

[03:33] Rory: Enormous. That is so funny. Yeah. And then what else was I advertised? Oh, I’ve been advertised. Those bathing suits that were on shark Tank. Maybe the lady listeners out there know what I’m talking about, but they’re basically like a corset in a bathing suit. And I think I might buy one.

[03:53] Matt: Just, like, incredibly tight.

[03:56] Rory: Like, there’s a lacing in the back, have your lady in waiting, your housewoman, your number one maid since you.

[04:08] Matt: Man, oh, man. Like that great scene in Titanic. We’re women, Rose. Our choices are never easy.

[04:14] Rory: Oh, Mother, you’ll give yourself a nosebleed.

[04:20] Matt: Goodbye, mother.

[04:24] Rory: Could you imagine hating your mother? That.

[04:29] Matt: It’s like, I don’t really think she deserved it either.

[04:34] Rory: No, she was just trying her best, working within a.

[04:39] Matt: And like, he. Jack was very poor.

[04:45] Rory: You’re right.

[04:46] Matt: It was homeless.

[04:47] Rory: He was homeless. He has $10 in his pocket. Aaron is.

[04:54] Matt: I don’t know if I would have encouraged that match either.

[04:57] Rory: What kind of mother would.

[04:58] Matt: To get realistic. To get perfectly realistic.

[05:01] Rory: Okay, so at the end. The end, her mother survives, but she says she’s Rose Dawson. Were to believe that she changed her identity and disappeared into the street.

[05:13] Matt: It was easier to do that back then.

[05:15] Rory: But she gave up her whole relationship with her mother.

[05:19] Matt: Yeah, it’s weird.

[05:21] Rory: She had issues to ride with one leg on either side of the horse.

[05:28] Matt: Yeah, and fly an old timey plane. That must have been a funny day of shooting when they shot all those pictures.

[05:38] Rory: I know. I’ve always thought about that.

[05:40] Matt: All right. Out of the horse gear into the Amelia Earhart costume.

[05:45] Rory: What we’re referring to for people who don’t remember Titanic so well is when old Rose is about to. You see her in her bedroom in present times on the ship, and she brought all her photos of just herself. And then one of them, she’s riding a horse on the beach, which she told Jack she wanted to do. And one, she’s flying an old propeller plane like Amelia Earhart.

[06:12] Matt: Yeah. I don’t know if I really want listeners of our podcast who don’t know Titanic well enough.

[06:18] Rory: Really. I keep the know.

[06:22] Matt: Just sign off. I don’t want to pander to that group, that demographic. Okay, so we’re talking about two things today because we got a little confused.

[06:33] Rory: But they’re kind of the same thing.

[06:35] Matt: They’re kind of the same. I thought our topic of the day was manifesting and I thought our topic.

[06:41] Rory: Of the day was positive thinking. Not positive thinking, positive attitudes, positivity. But I also had a nightmare last night that I got the topic wrong.

[06:52] Matt: Yeah.

[06:53] Rory: Because she manifest this into being.

[06:57] Matt: Yeah, I think you manifested getting the topic wrong slightly. Just slightly wrong.

[07:04] Rory: Yeah, they’re the same wheelhouse. So where do we want to kick it start?

[07:08] Matt: You can start with the start. You can go farther back. So there’s a great book by. What’s her name? I love her. Barbara Aaron Reich. Peace upon her soul, called bright sided, which really traces the history of the manifesting movement to this 19th century movement called the New Thought movement. One of the main proponents of it was this woman named Mary Baker Eady. She’s the founder of the Christian Scientist religion. And they don’t take medicine. They believe that you just pray and become spiritually aligned, and that will help bring, and that will promote healing. So you can already see in that theology the manifesting idea, the idea that our thoughts and our inner lives can affect our material circumstances. Now, where did she get this idea? Well, she was deeply depressed. But back then, when women were depressed, it was treated like a physical ailment. They were exhausted, they couldn’t get out of bed, and it was this sort of woman’s disease. And the treatment for it would be social isolation and bed rest, which, obviously, if you’re depressed, will make you more depressed.

[08:44] Rory: But doesn’t it sound cozy? Count me in.

[08:48] Matt: No phone, no reels.

[08:49] Rory: What?

[08:50] Matt: You want no reels to look at.

[08:53] Rory: Oh, please. There’s no reels when you leave the room, either. There’s just talking. Everyone in your family, there’s just getting dressed to sit in the parlor every night.

[09:02] Matt: Yeah, it was a life without reels, which we can debate the worthiness of living such a life.

[09:13] Rory: I have a question. Would you ever be prescribed foreign waters? A nice vacation up by the sea?

[09:21] Matt: Yeah, you might be prescribed fresh air and a course of foreign waters. A trip to the beach. Okay, but that’s more if you were heartbroken.

[09:30] Rory: Heartbroken, sure. Maybe hysterical.

[09:33] Matt: Maybe hysterical. Get that woman out of town. This woman locked in the attic, the sad one. So then Mary Baker Edie started talking to someone who was a spiritual coach. And guess what? Talking makes you feel better. We all know this now. Therapy.

[09:57] Rory: The talking cure, if you will.

[10:00] Matt: The talking cure.

[10:02] Rory: What year are we in or about?

[10:05] Matt: I don’t know. 19th century, 18 somethings. Okay, mid. I’ll go with mid to be safe. Okay, I’ll go with mid.

[10:17] Rory: So I can’t be too wrong on either side.

[10:19] Matt: Exactly.

[10:22] Rory: 1850.

[10:23] Matt: 1850. So she started feeling better, and she was like, wow, the spirit healed the body. Now, we know that depression is a mental health thing, so it actually isn’t that miraculous. The spirit healed the spirit, which is sort of duh, but she learned it’s also the body. Yes.

[10:47] Rory: Your brain is your body.

[10:49] Matt: So the brain healed the brain. The thing is, it’s different than pancreatic cancer. Obviously, an affliction of the brain is more liable to be able to be healed through the brain than a broken leg. But she extrapolated and she said, okay, the mind can heal the body, no medicine.

[11:14] Rory: Crazy. Because she didn’t even try it on a broken leg.

[11:18] Matt: I would have tried it on a broken leg.

[11:20] Rory: Get out in the field and start doing field work.

[11:24] Matt: Yeah, it’s like, come on. I thought this was the church of Christ scientist. Where’s the scientific method?

[11:30] Rory: Exactly. The scientific method had been around for.

[11:32] Matt: A, you know, she was a very smart woman, a very accomplished woman, and she was a great reader of books. And they have those christian science reading rooms everywhere that christian scientists like to read. And her ideas have been incredibly influential. They have wandered out of that church and into just the mainstream, where now we have manifesting culture. We have the secret by Rhonda Byrne.

[12:01] Rory: Yeah, I think many of us first came to know manifesting through the secret. I feel like that is the ultimate text for us. Modern manifesto, the secret is sort of the science behind. They definitely consider it a science and not an art behind willing what you want into your life.

[12:31] Matt: So I first became aware of the law of attraction.

[12:33] Rory: The law of attraction. So I first became aware of the secret when I was advertised a documentary that was in college that was like, this is the answer to the secret of the universe. And I thought I was going to see a spiritual documentary or a documentary on like, more like Carl Sagan. But actually it was just a bunch of new age people talking about how you should have positive thoughts. Because if your thoughts are positive, you’ll have positive things in your life. And if your thoughts are negative, you’ll have negative things in your life. Even your thoughts. If you even entertain negativity in a passing way, bad things will happen to you. That’s kind of what the secret says.

[13:17] Matt: Yeah, and it’s incredibly literal. So in the documentary, you see a woman looking at a necklace in a store window. The necklace fades, disappears and reappears on her neck. It’s not just positive positive. You will get that specific necklace also by thinking about it.

[13:41] Rory: Speaking of curing ailments, in the documentary, they talk about a woman who got cancer and all she did was think positive and watch funny movies. Only funny movies surrounded herself with happy, funny people. And guess what happened?

[13:56] Matt: It went away.

[13:57] Rory: Her cancer went away.

[13:58] Matt: Yeah. So the thing that sort of leaps off the page is how dangerous an ideology this is.

[14:07] Rory: Yeah. So why don’t we point out some of the obvious?

[14:10] Matt: Yeah, because I have some good things I want to say about it.

[14:15] Rory: And what’s the name of the woman who wrote the secret?

[14:17] Matt: Rhonda Byrne.

[14:18] Rory: Rhonda Byrne. So people will ask her, well, what about when mass tragedies happen to people? Like the tsunami in Fiji, I remember, was an example.

[14:27] Matt: Yeah.

[14:28] Rory: Said that that group of people was thinking negatively or that’s why the tsunami came.

[14:35] Matt: Yeah. She’s like, sorry, no exceptions. So that means holocaust, that means earthquakes. And it’s interesting to me that, okay, I feel like society is always embracing contradictory things. We’re always doing this and the opposite. So probably never has our culture been more obsessed with systems than ever before and more.

[15:05] Rory: What do you mean?

[15:07] Matt: Like, believing that personal, we don’t personally cause our own good or bad fortune. We’re the institutions or recipients of systems. Of institutions.

[15:23] Rory: Yeah.

[15:24] Matt: So a poor person is poor because of harsh economic systems and institutions and discrimination. So we’re sort of less likely to buy the personal responsibility explanation of events than ever before. And at the exact same time, as we’re moving in that direction intellectually, we’re also, and often the very same people. Yes. Are very likely to believe in manifesting, which is sort of the ultimate bootstraps.

[15:58] Rory: Exactly.

[15:59] Matt: Personal responsibility philosophy. The thing about lifting yourself up by your bootstraps is that it’s actually an impossible thing to do. You can’t lift, like, if you picture the image you can’t lift yourself up by your bootstraps, it’s physically impossible. So manifesting sort of provides the magic required to make such.

[16:18] Rory: Oh, my gosh. I never thought of it as a magical thing. I always thought of it as just putting your boots on.

[16:24] Matt: No. Yeah. It’s like, try lifting up your own chair while you’re sitting on it.

[16:30] Rory: Interesting. Yeah, that is the thing that I think speaks to us as human beings is we all subscribe to convenient theories for you. So when it’s convenient to think of what we experience as systemic versus convenient for us to think about, you manifested it. I also think that the most likely people to. And when I was studying positive thinking, I found studies to confirm that it’s like, the more successful you are, the more positive you think, the more successful you are. Isn’t it great to think that it all came to you not out of some randomness of the world, but because you deserve it? Yeah, because of thinking and because of whatever your greatness.

[17:19] Matt: But I don’t just think that it’s like we believe contradictory things because we do it when it’s convenient. I think they actually go together. I think we feel oppressed by the systemic view of the world. Newtonian physics gave us this very mechanized world psychology made us think, like, oh, we’re just, like, acting out our subconscious. Like, we’re not really agents. All these views of the world have made us feel really unempowered. So we embrace a new theology that makes us feel really empowered.

[18:01] Rory: Exactly. I mean, that’s the extreme appeal of manifesting is like, I have some control over my life. And of course, that is not what I ascribe to. I believe that surrender to the fact that you are not in control is actually the beginning of freedom. I personally do not believe that, but I think that there is something to like if you are constantly picturing a necklace, picturing a necklace, obsessively wanting a necklace, you can make that necklace come to you because laser focused and your attention is on it.

[18:38] Matt: Yeah. Then it becomes a matter of, like, how magical are we going to make this thing? So one of my practices is writing morning pages, three pages, handwritten each morning, and I do some visualization there of what I want. And, yeah, there’s no magic to it. It helps you be focused because you write it down. You’re like, oh, I’m talking about this a lot, but I’m not actually going for it, so let me go for it. You can see how it works. It works in a very clear way on your motivation and on how you organize your life. But one of those manifesting videos we watched the other day was like, her goal was $10,000. So if my goal is write a book, okay. Manifesting it ideally should motivate me to sit down and write the book.

[19:37] Rory: Well, writing a book within your control.

[19:41] Matt: Yes. So the $10,000 thing, that’s a whole nother level. You’re like, just give me $10,000, universe. What are you going to do for it?

[19:50] Rory: Yeah, it’s like, I don’t care. The universe will figure out the how and the way it comes from. I just sit here, Matt and I found there’s this Instagram manifest practice that we both did. I don’t think either of our manifests have come true, but if they do, we’ll keep you posted. But you basically do a square. I’ll post it on Instagram when we post this episode so you all can see the practice. But it’s a silly little manifest practice. And, yeah, it has nothing to do with the how.

[20:27] Matt: But can I tell you something? Okay.

[20:29] Rory: Magical thing.

[20:29] Matt: Everything that I’ve really tried to manifest for myself, I have gotten.

[20:36] Rory: So do you think that’s just people aren’t really trying if they haven’t?

[20:40] Matt: I sometimes think like, what if I did? Because I wouldn’t try to manifest $10,000 because I don’t believe it. Okay, so I got my book published. Now I manifested that, and I did it through a small publisher. But I didn’t even really let myself dream of a bigger publisher. I didn’t even try. And sometimes I wonder, are the people who are really good at manifesting the people who dare to dream big? Now I really sound like one of these people, one of these manifesting coaches. But that has been my experience that my results. I do get what I aim for, but I tend to aim pretty modestly.

[21:37] Rory: You aim modestly and you spend your life working towards it.

[21:41] Matt: That’s true. I do work towards the things. I don’t just wait. But what if I really went after that $10,000?

[21:51] Rory: Well, you are right now, right?

[21:53] Matt: No, I mean, just went after the manifesting of it. Like really visualization without the work.

[22:00] Rory: Well, let’s try it. But that’s the thing. Okay, so I have a witch book. So witchiness is pretty into manifesting, right? I mean, that’s what a lot of spells are. You can do a lot of sort of rituals, whatever, to bring things into your life. So I was reading my little witch book once, and it said, if you even have a shadow of doubt that it won’t come true. Then it won’t come true. And I hate that. Because as both of us people who are afflicted with the disease of doubt and the disease, and we all humans cannot control the thoughts that pop into their mind, it’s essentially setting you up to be the reason for your failure. It’s not the system. It’s not that there’s something maybe flawed with the idea of manifesting in this magical way. It’s that for 1 second you thought, what if this doesn’t come true? I hate that. That is so unrealistic and really ruins manifesting for me.

[23:05] Matt: Yeah, I forget what it was. Go ahead.

[23:09] Rory: I was just going to say, because a lot of the secret and the new age manifesting involves policing your thoughts. And I feel like that is the opposite of what we should be doing as human beings.

[23:24] Matt: Agreed. Yeah. I’m not into the thing where it’s like if you have even a little shadow of a doubt, it’s like, okay, so if you do get the thing, you’ll forget about that shadow of the doubt and just be like, it worked for me.

[23:36] Rory: Worked for me. I didn’t have a shadow of a doubt. Whereas if you don’t get it, and as the months go by, ticking by. You don’t have your $10,000 in the bank account. You start to question it, well, then you’re never going to get it. Sorry.

[23:52] Matt: Yeah. And it’s like everything that I have manifested into my life I’ve had lots of doubt about. Of course, that’s why I’m manifesting it, because I’m scared. Getting it.

[24:04] Rory: Absolutely. Problem I have with manifesting is I don’t feel like I always know what I want as a Libra. I feel like I can see the pros and cons. I’m like, be careful what you wish for. What if I do get that? Especially with the secret. You’re manifesting very specific things. Like, I want this house, this house, this house, this house, this house. And then I’m like, I’m going to get that house. It’s going to be haunted, be stuck there forever.

[24:33] Matt: Well, that’s what Miley Cyrus says. She’s in one of her songs in like a little speaking interlude. She’s like, I have to be really careful. I don’t know what I want. And my energy is so strong.

[24:45] Rory: Oh, my God. Good for her, believing in all those things about herself. That’s why when I meditate and I want something in my life, I focus on the feeling. So, like, say you want money or more money in life. I’ll think I want to feel financially secure.

[25:01] Matt: Yeah, you don’t say $10,000 because you know what? That’s why you don’t have $10,000.

[25:10] Rory: I have about that, give or take. What’s that? Michael Scott in the office. I already have $600. Yeah, that is the thing. As a result, I don’t know. It’s like, what are we going for here? I think we’re going for the feeling of feeling financially secure. Personally, I need to work on that more. But won’t that make you feel happier? I don’t know. Maybe that’s, do we want the thing or do we want the thing? The feeling that the thing brings us?

[25:42] Matt: I don’t know. Sometimes we want the thing, but maybe.

[25:46] Rory: I don’t want the thing.

[25:47] Matt: Maybe you don’t. Now I have a similar fear. So you’re saying, like, I’ll get the house and it will be haunted? Like, it won’t be what I want. So I have a similar fear because I think of this. It’s similar to prayer, but it’s like you’re not putting an address on it. A prayer is like a request submitted to God. And sometimes I worry that if you don’t submit your request to God specifically, someone else will pick it up.

[26:20] Rory: I love, like, what is that? Faust? Gerta.

[26:27] Matt: Yeah, exactly. This is definitely a fear that I’ve developed from listening to that exorcist files podcast. Yeah, because according to that podcast, the devil is always there waiting to make a deal with you, and I don’t want that. So I do try to specify, let this request of the universe go to God, and if God wants it to.

[26:59] Rory: Happen, very christian scientist of you. I assume they put their requests into God, no?

[27:06] Matt: Yeah, I guess they do put their requests into God, but I think they think there’s something mechanical about it, too. I think the prayer system is different. There can be these mechanized views of prayer where the power of prayer, prayer makes things happen. But the other vision of it is that you ask, but that must be.

[27:31] Rory: What christian scientists are doing, because they must be praying over sick people who die all the time, and they must say, oh, God, didn’t God had a bigger plan for this person? Right.

[27:41] Matt: Yeah. I wonder if they’ll stay with that medicine doctrine forever.

[27:45] Rory: I think that they’re not very modern. I think they’re probably losing people and updating, like all religions.

[27:52] Matt: Like all religions. So I think. Here’s one thing I wanted to say. To a large extent, our lives and the quality of our lives are based on the quality of our thoughts.

[28:06] Rory: I was just going to bring that up.

[28:08] Matt: Yes. And that’s what we do. We both do cognitive behavioral methods. We’re both big believers in that. And that’s a very different way of approaching us. There’s a similarity. It’s about finding wellness through changing your relationship to your thoughts. So if the manifesting thing is like, control your thoughts to control your reality, the cognitive behavioral approach is surrender to your thoughts.

[28:48] Rory: Well, I think that for cognitive behavioral. Yeah, it’s like you can’t control what thoughts come into your brain, but you can control how you react to them.

[28:57] Matt: Yeah.

[29:00] Rory: You’re not disappointing God or the universe or anyone by thinking a negative thought, but you don’t have to take it seriously. And that is actually the opposite of manifesting, which is saying, like, take all your thoughts very seriously because they have real life, real world effects.

[29:16] Matt: Yeah. In the material realm from CBT’s perspective is not as important as how we react to it.

[29:26] Rory: Right.

[29:27] Matt: And this is true. I mean, this is like the frankl thing. Like, have you ever read that book man’s search for meaning?

[29:35] Rory: No, but I gave it to Sam once.

[29:37] Matt: I mean, he was in a concentration camp and he realized that that was the only thing that could not be taken from him was what he did with his thoughts, how he cultivated his perspective.

[29:53] Rory: You need someone who was in a concentration camp to write that book, too, because it’s like, if someone like me wrote that book, you’d be like, girl, I’m sure it was much easier for you.

[30:09] Matt: Yeah, absolutely. It would be incredibly rude to suggest it. And also, it’s not necessarily prescriptive. If you’re in a horrible situation, you certainly have a right to be upset about it.

[30:23] Rory: Yeah, absolutely.

[30:27] Matt: And it’s not like he was having a great time. He recognized that there was one space that was inviolable and it was this internal space of thought and perspective, which is interesting. Obviously, I live a very privileged and safe life, but there’s a lot of most of my problems, all of them, I guess, actually could be solved with a change in perspective. Marianne Williamson calls a miracle. A miracle is a change in perspective.

[31:08] Rory: Oh, I’m glad you brought her up. She needs a change in perspective.

[31:14] Matt: Stop running for president.

[31:20] Rory: Stop. Like throwing fits of rage.

[31:23] Matt: Oh, yeah. I don’t like that they ratted on their boss.

[31:28] Rory: I know. I hate that you think that’s the issue.

[31:32] Matt: I do have some loyalty. Have some pride.

[31:35] Rory: Don’t have loyalty to someone who treats you badly.

[31:38] Matt: Just quit.

[31:40] Rory: Quit. And then you can tell everyone she’s a fraud. Because if you are having fits of rage, you’re not spiritually evolved.

[31:47] Matt: She’s a politician.

[31:49] Rory: She’s a powerful woman politician. I guess she’s not president and she’s sold millions of books about how to better yourself spiritually. Don’t you think that rage is like the lowest vibration?

[32:01] Matt: Yeah. And they teach that in Judaism.

[32:07] Rory: Yeah. It’s so base.

[32:09] Matt: Yeah. Rage comes from the lowest self. There was one commentator who said, that’s what Moses’sin was that got him killed.

[32:22] Rory: The thing is that you are not angry. Who gets annoyed with people? You obviously can be tersed with people, but you’ve never been rageful towards someone.

[32:33] Matt: Not recently and not often, but I’ve felt rage before.

[32:39] Rory: Of course you feel it, but you’re not going to just scream at a coworker. Well, you don’t have a coworker. But the equivalent of. To get to that point, I’m like, what is kind of wrong with you?

[32:50] Matt: Yeah, it’s bad to really scream at another person.

[32:56] Rory: It would be so hard for me to get there and I’d have to feel very comfortable with them.

[33:00] Matt: Yeah. Have you ever had a screaming fit.

[33:02] Rory: In your relationship, nothing like where we’re.

[33:07] Matt: Because I think a lot of people do. I think a lot of people in relationships and in families do have real shouting matches. I didn’t grow up in a screamy family, but I think a lot of people do.

[33:19] Rory: Well, I did, but there were someone in my family who did a lot of shouting. And this informs my low assessment. But I think that it’s one thing to be shouting at your family and another to be shouting at coworkers. Where’s your sense of propriety?

[33:39] Matt: Yeah, I do not like when people step out of those bounds at work.

[33:43] Rory: You know, that I’m like, you need to. Or yelling at a stranger. People do that. Like, you need to get yourself in order if you’re doing that.

[33:52] Matt: Like Ben Stiller on friends.

[33:55] Rory: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Anyway, but I think that what we’re saying, if you’re going through the world with mostly negative thoughts running through your head, and this can go from negative self talk, catastrophizing things, being a perfectionist, all those types of negative thoughts, you’re going to have a pessimistic view of the world because those are the glasses you’re wearing.

[34:26] Matt: Yeah. That’s your life. You just made your life bad, no matter how good it. Know, I was just talking about that today with. Sorry. I’ve been watching friends, so I have a lot of friends references right now. But like, Matthew Perry was living a life that countless people would know spilled their own blood in a pagan ritual to manifest a star on the most successful sitcom making a million bucks an episode. And he wasn’t know.

[35:05] Rory: And if you ever married to Julia.

[35:07] Matt: Roberts, apparently not married.

[35:09] Rory: They dated. But here’s the thing is, I listened to celebrity memoir, book club podcast about his memoir, and he had the most negative thoughts. He was a negative, victimizing, pessimistic person. And that’s why his life has been sad and miserable and still is.

[35:33] Matt: Right.

[35:34] Rory: And I say that. Yeah, absolutely. And I say that non judgmentally, sort of factually, it actually is kind of really sad.

[35:42] Matt: Yeah. And it’s sad when everyone does it. It’s sad how the capacity we all have. Oh, look, we’ve sort of naturally wandered into the positive attitude.

[35:55] Rory: Yeah. That’s terrain what we were doing.

[35:58] Matt: I didn’t even notice it happening.

[36:02] Rory: Like that. We manifested that positive thinking. Yeah. That is the thing. I truly believe because of my work doing exposure therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, that you can improve your thoughts, improve your relationship with your thoughts, especially, and that will improve your outlook on yourself and the world.

[36:26] Matt: Yeah. Thinking is an art. It’s an art. And we don’t spend any time teaching people how to think. We just send them out into the world with this brain just firing off. And we actually give people terrible advice about thoughts. Usually, whatever instruction we are giving about thoughts, it’s usually bad. For example, this jewish kabbalah book I had that was like, make sure your first thought in the morning is positive because that will set the tone of your whole day.

[37:01] Rory: Oh, my God. That’s so the secret.

[37:04] Matt: Yeah. It’s like, no, my first thought in the morning is obviously going to be, I don’t want to wake up. That is a bad way to start every day of your life, but it’s also fine, and it does not have to ruin your day.

[37:23] Rory: No, exactly. That’s the thing of that CBT teaches you, is that one thought need not be your whole identity and need not set you on a course of misery.

[37:36] Matt: And one of my favorite pieces of wisdom, which is the exact opposite piece of wisdom, is our dear friend Theta in college had a sign over her bed that said, it’s never going to be easy to get out of bed. She had a bed? Yeah. Like a little note.

[37:55] Rory: Oh, that she wrote herself.

[37:58] Matt: Yeah. It wasn’t like a street sign.

[38:00] Rory: Well, I was wondering if it was from home goods.

[38:02] Matt: No, she wrote this because, and this is the exact opposite approach, accept that it sucks to wake up in the morning and get on with your day. That’s okay.

[38:16] Rory: Well, that is what I was going to actually talk to you about, being an optimist versus being a pessimist versus being where I think I land, which is like, when I was looking into this, because I thought we were doing a different episode, I was looking into, like, what is an optimist? And an optimist is someone who thinks everything will work out well in the end. And I’m like, first of all, what is the end like at death? Because I believe life is a circle, not a line. And second of all, I don’t believe everything will work out well objectively. But I do believe no matter what happens, it’ll be fine.

[38:51] Matt: It’s fine.

[38:52] Rory: Objectively, you might lose everything, but you’ll deal with it, and your life will keep going.

[39:00] Matt: Yeah, it will. Until it doesn’t.

[39:02] Rory: Until you die. Yeah. That’s the thing, is, there’s a certain level of acceptance in life, and then there’s a certain level of improvements that you can make. Acceptance is like the beginning of freedom to me.

[39:20] Matt: Which, again, is why you’re not manifesting $10,000 you’re accepting.

[39:27] Rory: I know. Crazy. I mean also kind of what we were talking about in Chicago. Matt and I just saw each other in Chicago. By the way.

[39:38] Matt: That was so fun. We manifested that.

[39:44] Rory: You were saying that if your goal is to have a job where you make money you can do that. But you can’t have any other goals besides making money. Right?

[39:56] Matt: Yeah. That’s what I have seen. I’ve seen if the people I know who set out to make big bucks have the people who had even a single other priority alongside that. And I want to make a difference. It has cursed them.

[40:14] Rory: Poverty. I think that you have to have priorities in life. Like if you’re trying to manifest something like that necklace in the window. You spend a lot of energy on that necklace in the window at the of other things in your life. Maybe.

[40:28] Matt: Yeah. We aim ourselves in a certain direction. And this is the real power of manifesting your life is going to follow whatever path you walk down. It’s quite simple. It’s not magical.

[40:52] Rory: And how much you enjoy it though does have to do with the way you think about it.

[40:56] Matt: Yeah. But back to positive attitude because we had a conversation about complaining the other day.

[41:04] Rory: That’s what inspired us to do this episode. But then apparently there’s a miscommunication. But yeah. So the average person complains 30 times a day. So I was trying to keep track of how much I complained. But then I was like, what is complaining? Right. Is saying I’m tired complaining or is it just a statement of fact?

[41:28] Matt: Yeah. I think it’s a complaint.

[41:31] Rory: Also. I don’t think one complaint is all complaints are created equal. You saying I’m tired is different from you going on a rant for 35 minutes about something that happened at your job. Which is why all complaints are two minutes long. And every two minutes it resets. So like you complain for four minutes. That counts for two complaints.

[41:52] Matt: Yeah. Okay. One type of complaint is like, yeah. You have a bad interaction. You have a bad service at a restaurant or experience on an airplane. And then you tell every person you meet for the next 20 days that story.

[42:13] Rory: But in that case there usually is humor in it. Right? Like get this.

[42:18] Matt: Sometimes there’s not. Sometimes it’s just indignance. If there’s humor. Listen. If the point of the story is for laughs. I’m almost thinking it’s not a complaint anymore.

[42:33] Rory: Interesting.

[42:33] Matt: Like my story about that J. Crew guy.

[42:36] Rory: Oh my God. That was so funny.

[42:38] Matt: I wish we’re not telling it on the air.

[42:40] Rory: But DM Matt for the.

[42:45] Matt: It was. The purpose was not a complaint. The purpose was me doing stand up. It was a funny story. I enjoyed telling it, and people enjoyed hearing it. So that’s not a complaint. Even though structurally it was about weird service I got.

[43:04] Rory: Yeah. Well, that’s interesting, because sometimes I feel like I’ve become a much more positive person in the last few years, like, since entering my 30s, essentially. But I will still call you with a variety of complaints.

[43:21] Matt: We love complaining to each other.

[43:23] Rory: Yeah. I get joy out of it, but I’m not, like, laying in bed at night thinking about this funny, weird interaction I had with someone.

[43:33] Matt: No, I’m often excited as it’s happening because I know I get to tell you about it.

[43:38] Rory: Yeah. Does that count as a complaint?

[43:40] Matt: No, I think it needs to be embittered.

[43:43] Rory: Okay, well, okay.

[43:45] Matt: I think it needs to be embittered. And I feel like there’s this religious jews, when you ask them how they are, they’ll say, thank God. Which I think is very sweet.

[44:01] Rory: Thank God. How are you? Thank God.

[44:04] Matt: Yeah, thank God.

[44:06] Rory: What a roundabout way to answer the question.

[44:08] Matt: Thank God. I’m alive. Thank God. Praise him. Praise be. Now, when secular people ask how we are, we’re like, there’s this way that we greet each other in the world that is based on expressing how tired and busy and miserable we are. Just often more tired, miserable, and busy than we actually are just because we think this is how you start a conversation.

[44:44] Rory: Well, there is some level of bonding over complaint and misery. If you’ve ever worked in a bad work environment, that’s when the people at the bottom can really get together and feel connected to each other.

[44:58] Matt: Yeah, that’s true.

[45:00] Rory: Extreme bonding.

[45:03] Matt: Yeah. Some degree of complaint can definitely be bonding and healing. Well, you were saying that it doesn’t actually. That studies show.

[45:14] Rory: So that’s the thing, is studies show that venting all of your problems. So if you were going home and talking about. I mean, I think of this so much with work, because that is my life and most people’s lives. Work is something where there’s a lot of grievances. So if you go home at the end of the day and, like, unloaded on Sam about, like, X, Y, and Z, said to me, I never do that because it never makes me feel better. And studies show that it doesn’t make you feel better. You can vent all you want. It’s actually worse for you because you’re constantly reliving it. And when you relive these things, your emotions get there, too.

[45:56] Matt: Yeah.

[45:57] Rory: You will feel the same irate feeling or embarrassed feeling or annoyed feeling that you felt when that situation was actually.

[46:05] Matt: Occurring, as if it’s still happening.

[46:07] Rory: But my question is, don’t you think, what about the need to process things? Isn’t that the opposite of what we’re told in society about the talking cure?

[46:18] Matt: Yeah, but a therapist isn’t going to be like, what a *****. A therapist is actually going to challenge you on some of it. These people, they were walking so slow down the street, and they were a wall. There was a whole wall of people. Why didn’t you go around them? The therapist might challenge you on it and show how you a good therapist? Yeah, a good therapist. That’s my new thing, by the way. I say as I walk down the street, I tell myself, be like, water flow around the obstacles rather than becoming enraged with the obstacles. Also, you know what makes me have a really good attitude is when there’s someone else in the line who has a bad attitude.

[47:10] Rory: Oh, 100%.

[47:12] Matt: And then you’re like, you don’t want to be like that person. So you’re like, take it easy.

[47:16] Rory: Take it. It’s good. We’re just at the, like when I was, another source of ire is obviously traveling, especially in airports, and I was like, irritated left and right. And I would ask myself, is this a reasonable irritation or an unreasonable one?

[47:40] Matt: And, oh, well, what was the breakdown?

[47:44] Rory: So people walking slowly, and I have to get to my gate. Unreasonable. They have kids. They have, like, just because I’m running late to my gate is not their fault.

[47:55] Matt: Yeah. You’re not going to miss the plane.

[47:58] Rory: Yeah. Now, let me tell you this. I was in line at the Dunkin donuts. There was one person, a cashier, and she was making the coffee, and it was a huge line. One person, early morning flight, and people were asking for these complicated drinks. So she has to make the drink before she can serve the next person.

[48:20] Matt: Yeah.

[48:21] Rory: I was so annoyed. What do you think about that?

[48:25] Matt: It’s just order a coffee. Yeah, just order a coffee. Yeah. I think my rage would be more at the people who didn’t staff another person on that shift.

[48:42] Rory: Oh, interesting, because I was really getting at the girl who was like, I’ll have a strawberry mocha with three shots.

[48:51] Matt: I don’t know. I think some people just think their drink order is that all drink orders are equal. I don’t think everyone.

[49:01] Rory: Okay, well, that’s another problem I have. They’re not observing what’s happening. Being observant is, like, an important part of being considerate.

[49:11] Matt: Yeah, no, it’s true. It’s true. I mean, the drip coffee is a different. You could get a drip or an iced coffee in that.

[49:18] Rory: Exactly. That’s exactly it. Or then there are people going up being like, we’re all in line for 15 minutes, and how do you feel about this? When they go up and they’re like, it’s their turn to order after 15 minutes, and they don’t know what they want. Yeah, those people should be eliminated from earth.

[49:38] Matt: I hate that. It’s like, yeah, you got to know. Just got to know you’ve had your time to think about it.

[49:46] Rory: Unbelievable.

[49:47] Matt: But I’m like, yeah, I’m ready to go. I’ve got my money out.

[49:51] Rory: Me too.

[49:53] Matt: And I tend to think that if the whole security line at the airport were me, I’m undoing my shoelaces way before it’s time. That’s the thing. Some people are focused on efficiency in these moments, and some people just aren’t. They’re daughtering fools.

[50:16] Rory: Yeah. I always imagine that the people in line behind me at dunkin’donuts are, like, silently clapping for how I’ll be so proud of how quickly I moved through that. Like, wow, I wish everyone in this line was like her.

[50:32] Matt: It’s almost like she knew that this interaction would end with having to pay for something, so she got her wallet out in advance, unlike the rest of these idiots, who seemingly are surprised that this is a financial exchange that involves taking their credit card out.

[50:51] Rory: The 17 year old with her mom in front of me, and the lady was like, well, what size do you want? And she was like, what size, mom? What size do I want? You didn’t know you would have to give a size. Have you ever been to any place where you’ve ordered a coffee?

[51:07] Matt: Yeah. You’re canceled, and your mom is canceled for not educating you better anyway.

[51:14] Rory: So what about, say, I came to you with that story or a worse grievance? Here was what I want to know. When should we employ positivity? When someone is complaining to you?

[51:29] Matt: Good question. So I think that when it comes to important relationships, actually, I don’t know, because if you’re complaining about someone in your life, you don’t want your friend to be like, well, maybe they were tired. You want your friend to just take your side and be like, oh, that’s so annoying. But I guess I kind of think that. I don’t know. What do you think?

[52:00] Rory: I don’t know. It’s really hard because some people are complainers, and it’s kind of a lot on the listener.

[52:08] Matt: Yeah.

[52:09] Rory: Especially when there have been times when you’re complaining about something and I’ve been like, well, I can see it from their perspective.

[52:18] Matt: Yeah, I appreciate that.

[52:20] Rory: And you don’t mind?

[52:22] Matt: I mind. It’s not easy to hear, but I appreciate it. I like it in the end.

[52:30] Rory: So I guess it depends on the relationship and the person. But if you have someone in your life who doesn’t want to hear it, I think it’s best to just acquiesce to that.

[52:39] Matt: Yeah, I’m thinking about it. Or try not to feed into it.

[52:44] Rory: Yeah, just be a neutral party.

[52:45] Matt: Sounds hard.

[52:46] Rory: Yeah. What is that called? Nonviolent communication.

[52:49] Matt: Yeah, we could all use some NVC.

[52:53] Rory: Just nodding along, listening. I wish I could do that better.

[52:58] Matt: Yeah. Just be the change you want to see in the world. Be the good attitude you want to see in the world. But clearly we just devolved into complaints just now.

[53:07] Rory: Yeah, I was really getting. But I also like that feels like such a lower vibration, such my lower self that I almost didn’t even need to tell you that story. I didn’t need to tell you that story. I would have been lived with my life fine without it. But it is fun for me to engage in that kind of outraged behavior.

[53:30] Matt: Sure. And that’s like a lot of what, actual sitcoms and stand up like Seinfeld is built on moments of frustration like that. It’s funny to watch because people are annoying and life is full of little annoyances, and laughing at them is probably one of the best ways to process it.

[53:56] Rory: But it’s like when you get to the point where you’re like every week or every day, you have something big happen to you and you need to tell twelve people about it. And it’s not like in this, like, you can’t see how trivial it is, I guess.

[54:10] Matt: Yeah, okay. And I’ve definitely gotten in this place before where I feel so self righteous and so deeply aggrieved. Like an injustice has happened.

[54:21] Rory: Yeah, absolutely.

[54:22] Matt: And it’s like, no injustice happened. Everything is fine. Calm down. You’re not self righteous, you’re a loser.

[54:30] Rory: Just like this happens in work a lot. It’s just that people are constantly being perceived as. And of course, I have definitely experienced this myself, but people are constantly being perceived as being slighted by people, by little comments. And it really colors their whole day and they get really upset about it. And who knows if it’s based in fact or dot. We cannot know what other people think or meant by their comments, but it just points to how sick it is that we all have to spend our time working. It’s not natural working in offices with other people.

[55:11] Matt: Yeah, it’s very.

[55:14] Rory: Working in an office is unhealthy. Yeah. It’s unhealthy because we’re sitting there, but it’s unhealthy because we’re also so bad at living a cooperative work. Having a cooperative work environment. It’s so bad for your mental health. You shouldn’t be around people who irritate you so much all day.

[55:33] Matt: No. And that has been. I’ve had living situations like that also. Roommates.

[55:38] Rory: Yeah. It’s like. And then there also has to be this sheen of professionalism on it all, too. So it just devolves into passive aggressiveness.

[55:49] Matt: Yeah. Real personality conflict.

[55:51] Rory: Yeah. Which is ripe for misinterpretation of what people are actually trying to say because no one can actually say what they want to say.

[55:59] Matt: I once worked with this woman at Starbucks who said about another woman we worked with, she was like, I have a personality conflict with her, so I try not to be on shift with her. And I was like, that’s a nice way of saying it. And she was like, no, that’s what it is. I was like, really impressed she didn’t take it to that personal place of like, she’s a *****. She’s mean to me. She was like, it’s not working out with us too.

[56:33] Rory: Right, exactly.

[56:35] Matt: It’s bound to happen sometimes. And this is one of those times. That’s like, the four agreements. Don’t take it personally.

[56:43] Rory: Yeah. That is such a helpful thing that I try and keep in mind whenever I feel slighted.

[56:49] Matt: Which brings us to our third topic of the day.

[56:53] Rory: Feeling slighted.

[56:55] Matt: The four agreements. One of the four agreements.

[57:00] Rory: I do think, though, if it’s not put upon you. Right. So say I came to you with a really. I was like, I had the worst day ever, and I got a barking ticket and I accidentally ran over a dog. And then you’re like, well, at least you have a warm bed. That is so annoying. No one should have to suffer that. But same time, maybe we should be doing that more for ourselves. Our own thoughts.

[57:32] Matt: Yeah.

[57:33] Rory: Maybe if the voice comes from inside the head, we can receive it, then it’s more.

[57:37] Matt: Yeah. But also forced gratitude is kind of like forced positive thinking. It’s forced, by which I mean it’s forced. The CBT approach is to not take the thoughts too seriously. So when the person walks in front of you and is blocking you on the sidewalk and you become enraged instead of saying, but remember, there’s people without food, and I have a warm bed. Which now you’re just like. You’re really interacting with this thought now in a way that gives it a lot of power instead of just being like, moment of frustration. It happens.

[58:16] Rory: That’s absolutely true. But maybe, I guess. Yeah, I think you’re right. But maybe when you’re maybe also taking notice of good moments in your life. Because I do think that we have a tendency to focus on the bad, the bad, the frustrating, the annoying. Because that. I don’t know. It’s just like scratching an itch. It feels really good in a way. It’s so inspiring? Evocative.

[58:44] Matt: Yeah. Because I think the self righteous feeling and the victimization feeling are really intoxicating.

[58:51] Rory: Yeah, they are.

[58:52] Matt: We love to be victims.

[58:55] Rory: We do. And sometimes people are.

[58:57] Matt: Sure. We all are. That was something Nancy Baker said once, my professor at Sarah Lawrence. We’re all victims of something. Some of us are victims of oppressive regimes. Some of us are victims of our parents. Then she said, well, we’re all victims of our parents. Let’s just say we’re all victims of something.

[59:20] Rory: Amen, sister. Well, I think we’re about done. Do you have anything else you want to say? I have a question. Do you think I’m a positive person?

[59:29] Matt: Actually, yeah, I do.

[59:31] Rory: Thank you. I feel like I’ve been working on it, in the sense, not directly, but in enjoying life more. The last of my life. I don’t think I started out that way, though. It didn’t come natural to me.

[59:43] Matt: I don’t know. I think you’re pretty happy with what is.

[59:46] Rory: Exactly.

[59:48] Matt: Yeah. I think you dwell within the realm of what is rather than what could have been and what could be.

[59:56] Rory: Absolutely.

[59:57] Matt: Which, again, is why you don’t have that $10,000.

[01:00:00] Rory: True. But I also feel like I don’t have a lot of grievances against people.

[01:00:03] Matt: No. Do you have any enemies?

[01:00:06] Rory: I sure do. Someone we went to college with? Not really. She occupies zero of my thoughts. It’s just a little joke I have. What about you?

[01:00:18] Matt: What about me?

[01:00:19] Rory: Yeah. I do think you’re a positive person. I think that you are easily frustrated, irascible at times, but I think you’re also easy to calm down.

[01:00:33] Matt: Yes.

[01:00:34] Rory: And you just do it naturally yourself.

[01:00:36] Matt: Yeah. My angry moods don’t last long. That’s one of their. Nice.

[01:00:41] Rory: Yeah. And I do think mostly entertainment. A lot. Not mostly.

[01:00:47] Matt: I don’t know.

[01:00:48] Rory: I think they’re real, but also entertainment. And you don’t have any hard resentments for people you’re not like, ******** about someone who wronged you five years ago?

[01:00:58] Matt: For the most part, no. Except, no, I have a few resentments. I’ve got a short list.

[01:01:08] Rory: Yeah, but that’s kind of new.

[01:01:10] Matt: That’s kind of new. Yeah. I just mouthed someone’s name. Okay, good. Two positive people.

[01:01:22] Rory: Well, I think that my life has been a lot better since I started accepting what is and enjoying what is.

[01:01:29] Matt: But I’m still not accepting what is. I actually. Just before this podcast, before recording it, I did a manifestation that I read about called three six nine. Okay, do you know about this?

[01:01:43] Rory: No.

[01:01:46] Matt: Three times you write what you want to manifest, six times you write why you want to manifest it, and nine times you write as if it had already come true, how you feel.

[01:01:59] Rory: Okay, I’m going to do that, listeners, you do it and let us know, dms, if it works.

[01:02:06] Matt: Yeah, it will work.

[01:02:08] Rory: It will work.

[01:02:10] Matt: It will work.

[01:02:11] Rory: I don’t have that.

[01:02:12] Matt: And dream big.

[01:02:14] Rory: I’m a novice now. Here’s the thing about me. One area is I have some negative self talk about little things in my appearance. Like I was just looking at my hands and thinking they look kind of old and I need to wear sunscreen. I should be looking at my hands and say, yeah. Thank you, Hans.

[01:02:31] Matt: Thank you, Hans. You do marvelous work.

[01:02:34] Rory: What great claw work you can do.

[01:02:37] Matt: You scratch my itches, you scroll my screens. You scroll my screen. Yeah, you do swat flies. I guess you probably don’t really swat flies.

[01:02:53] Rory: Me personally, no.

[01:02:55] Matt: What else do hands do?

[01:02:57] Rory: Look at me like I’m just using them left and right, pulling up my hair with my hands. What don’t they do?

[01:03:03] Matt: Eating.

[01:03:04] Rory: Eating, wiping away tears, waving hello.

[01:03:09] Matt: Yeah, they do a lot. But you know what? Put some sunscreen on them.

[01:03:12] Rory: I will. But it’s like that negative talk. It’s like. Okay, well, Matt, thanks for joining me.

[01:03:20] Matt: Thank you. I had a delightful time.

[01:03:22] Rory: Me, too. I hope I can manifest this happening again in the next two weeks.

[01:03:26] Matt: I think you just might.

[01:03:29] Rory: I should dream bigger.

[01:03:31] Matt: All right, $10,000. Bye bye. Sa.